Evidence of meeting #36 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nato.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jill Sinclair  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence
Brian Irwin  Director, NATO Policy, Department of National Defence

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Good morning, everyone.

I apologize for being late. I was in a committee meeting that had an important vote and I had to wait until that vote took place before I came over.

Our first order of business was to have an election for vice-chair, but in the absence of Mr. Harris we will do that at the next available committee meeting. I understand he has other important business to be at.

We'll continue on right to our Standing Order 108(2) where we're undertaking a study of NATO's strategic concept and Canada's role in international defence cooperation.

Joining us is a witness from National Defence who is very familiar to the committee. She is Jill Sinclair, the assistant deputy minister of policy. Joining her is Colonel Brian Irwin, who is the director of NATO policy.

Welcome to both of you.

Ms. Sinclair, could you start off with your opening comments? Just so the committee knows, we're giving our witnesses today 15 minutes for opening testimony. That was agreed to by the subcommittee on national defence.

11:10 a.m.

Jill Sinclair Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for giving me those 15 minutes.

It's always a pleasure to be here before the committee. I'm very pleased to be here as part of our integrated defence team with Colonel Irwin, director of NATO policy. As I've said before at this committee, we work as a total civil-military joined up team.

This morning, Mr. Chair, with your indulgence and that of the members, rather than read a prepared statement that you have in front of you, we've circulated a deck, which I hope everybody has. My intention is to walk you through this deck very quickly. It's an overview of NATO to give you some of the background that we think might be helpful to you as you begin your important and very timely work on NATO. It's important because NATO remains the pillar of transatlantic security. It's what the 2010 strategic concept called an unparalleled community of freedom, peace, security, and shared values. It's a foundation stone in Canada's defence and security policy. It's timely, of course, because we're looking towards the Chicago summit, May 20 and 21, where the alliance will continue its work on transformation, modernization, and reform.

So, if I may, I will make a short presentation.

I will do it on the basis of this deck.

I'm going to go very quickly through it.

To outline, I want to give you a sense of the background, the core business of NATO, the structure and governance, very quickly. I hope you'll be hearing from some NATO folks, from the commander of transformation and others, who will be able to give you the details, but I want to give you a sense of the structure and governance, and a little bit on Canada's engagement with the alliance. Obviously, we'll be open for all sorts of questions and discussion afterward.

In terms of historical background, the Washington Treaty is the foundation stone of NATO. In 1949—and just for historical context, that was three years after Churchill gave his iron curtain speech in Fulton, Missouri. That was the context within which NATO was originally established, a political and military organization. We'll come back to these themes a lot. It's not just the military. It's also a political organization. It's an association of countries with shared values, and it is embedded in the principle of collective defence, which we'll speak to a little bit later, and a comprehensive vision of security.

It's all about the transatlantic link. Obviously NATO binds Canada and the United States in an indivisible way with the security of Europe. It's an alliance that has gone through periodic phases of enlargement, even before the end of the Cold War—Spain came into the alliance in 1982. There has been continual transformation and modernization of this alliance.

We have a little map of NATO today. I won't go through it in any detail, but it shows you that we have 28 members. It gives you a bit of a sense of NATO today in terms of its reach and the countries that are engaged through NATO, either as allies or partners or friends or aspirants.

The essence of the alliance is collective defence. It's the bedrock of the alliance. Collective defence means article 5 of the Washington Treaty—an attack against one ally is considered an attack against all. Interestingly, in the long history of the alliance, article 5 has been invoked only once, and that was after 9/11, when the United States was attacked in that horrific incident that we all know.

But the alliance is constantly changing and evolving. In 2010 we looked at our strategic concept. That's something the alliance has done about every decade. It's bad timing, I suppose, that we had looked at the strategic concept last in 2001, just before the events of 9/11, so it was totally overcome by events the minute it was produced. In 2010 we took another look at the strategic concept and we looked at three core tasks—collective defence, crisis management, and cooperative security, which is about partnership. Again, we can come back to all of these issues.

It was all about transformation because the world was changing, and we learned that post 9/11—cyber, weapons of mass destruction, energy, terrorism. There were new things that we had to do in order to make the Euro-Atlantic space safe, but there were also new things the alliance had to do to be a projector of security and stability, not just for allies but for all those who shared our common values.

Here we talk about moving toward Chicago, and I'm sure that will be of great interest to you, so again, we'd be happy to discuss that in the questions. In the spirit of transformation, we are moving toward Chicago, May 20 and 21. The strategic concept of 2010 is shaping a lot of that thinking, because that was just a strategic concept; now we have to actually implement it. There's a lot of detailed work that has to be done in terms of defence capabilities and other dimensions of NATO, and Colonel Irwin and I will be happy to talk to that.

The current NATO priorities as defined, as we go towards Chicago, are operations, capabilities, transformation, and reform.

If I can just make a quick cross-reference back to some of the work the committee has just done on readiness, it's really all about making NATO ready for its task. I think you'll find that the work you've done previously will help inform your thinking about where Canada wants NATO to go, but also where most allies are focusing their interest. Obviously we're drawing on the lessons we've learned from operations in Afghanistan, Libya, counter-piracy, humanitarian assistance. The whole of Chicago is about making sure that we draw on those experiences and position the alliance for its next phase of existence.

I'll say a very quick word on NATO mechanisms. You don't need to get into this too much at this point. As I said, I think you'll have some folks from the NATO secretariat who will be able to walk you through it.

What's important to remember is that NATO is a consensus decision-making organization. You're all familiar with what that means. It's kind of complex in that there are 28 folks around the table with different national approaches, but we work to consensus. It's an integrated civil and military structure.

Here I have to say that Canada, the Canadian delegation to NATO, is the poster child for an integrated civilian-military delegation. We are definitely the gold standard. Colonel Irwin was previously posted to the mission in NATO. There are only about half a dozen truly integrated national delegations at NATO. As I say, Canada is number one in how we bring the civilian and military pieces together.

There are national representations. The governance structure goes from leaders, who will be meeting in Chicago next week, down to what we call the permanent representatives—our ambassadors who sit in NATO on a daily basis.

This is just a little bit more “granularity”, as we say, in detail on the governance structures.

Let me just say a quick word about operations, because I think that's what most people think of when they think about NATO. NATO does crisis management operations and missions. The list here is one that I think is known to most of you: Afghanistan; Libya, most recently; Kosovo; we're doing counterterrorism operations in the Mediterranean, and have been there since the attacks of 9/11; counter-piracy; a NATO-engaged training mission in Iraq, which is where we first started to do a lot of the training and capacity building carried on in the mission in Afghanistan; again, Balkans operations, one of which continues today in Kosovo; and also civil emergency planning.

NATO is supposed to be of functional, practical help to all its allies, and as I say, to those with whom we can work because they share our values. We've learned within NATO that you can't do it alone. It has to be all about partnership.

NATO has long been open to partners, new partners in Europe and new partners outside of Europe. We've listed some of them here. Again, we can speak in more detail about what these mean. They range from the NATO-Russia relationship, which is an interesting one with its own dynamics—again, we can talk about that a bit—to our Mediterranean dialogue, which enables countries like Israel, Jordan, Tunisia, Algeria, and others to have a partnership arrangement with NATO in terms of practical work.

Also, in operations, as you'll all recall from the operation in Libya, we worked with the UAE, we worked with Jordan, we worked with Morocco, and of course, ISAF, which has dozens of countries associated with it in Afghanistan.

I mentioned very briefly NATO-Russia. There is a NATO-Russia Council, and there's a lot of history around this, obviously.

At this point, forgive me, because I should have apologized at the outset for.... There are many NATO experts at this table. Many apologies if I'm going over ground you already know.

NATO-Russia was established back in 2002. It's had its ups and downs, but the bottom line is that there is still a dialogue with Russia on a lot of practical issues. In fact, just last week in Brussels, foreign ministers met, as did defence ministers, and there was a NATO-Russia dialogue around that. You can see some of the practical areas that we're looking at with the Russians.

Finally, a word on NATO as its role is a foundation stone for Canadian defence and security. We were one of the original members of NATO. We helped write the Washington Treaty.

Mike Pearson wrote the famous article 2, which says that the alliance is about more than just the military, it's about the well-being and stability of all the countries within the alliance. That's permeated the work of NATO since the establishment of the Washington Treaty, an absolute pillar of Canada's defence policy. It reaffirms for us the fundamental importance of the transatlantic link. Again, I don't need to remind this committee about what that means for Canada. Our commitment to transatlantic security is in the fields of Vimy and Ypres and Passchendaele and on Juno Beach and elsewhere.

Article 5, that an attack against one is an attack against all, is extremely important to us, but also expeditionary operations. We have to meet security threats where they emerge. That doesn't mean sitting at home getting ready for masses of troops to come at us, we need to be much more flexible and agile as an alliance.

We consider it a primary forum for political and military discussions. The Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of National Defence share NATO as an institution, hence the joint ministerial meeting that took place in Brussels last week.

The priorities for Canada are operations, reform, and transformation.

This has to be an alliance that can do stuff for Canada. It's about having an alliance that's fit for purpose, where we can act together, we can discuss things frankly, we can act in an agile and flexible way, we can keep ourselves open to new partnerships, and we can do our core business. So that's what it's all about for Canada.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to complete this very quick, and I hope not too superficial, walk-through of NATO, and we'd be very delighted to take questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

We'll go to our seven-minute round.

Ms. Moore, you have seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you for coming, Ms. Sinclair.

In our previous study, we spoke about the concept of smart defence on a number of occasions. We realized that, if every country tried to have armed forces equipped for every operational capability, it would not be financially viable. So we came to the conclusion that we had to come together, with other NATO countries, for example, to choose what our contribution would be so that our armed forces could provide operational capability while still remaining financially viable. It is most valid given that we have NATO, of course, but we also have missions with the United Nations. So we have to invest our money wisely in order to be able to meet all our obligations and not, for example, have to set UN missions to one side.

I would like to know your opinion of the aspects that Canada would be both interested in and able to provide, if we were moving towards the concept of smart defence.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence

Jill Sinclair

Thank you for the question. Let me answer first, then Colonel Irwin can answer too.

You're right that a smart defence is all about making the most out of defence budgets. Obviously, it goes without saying that everybody is feeling a fiscal restraint.

In terms of the capabilities that Canada can offer, and the most important, we have to look at this both in terms of what we need for our own national defence.... Because we have three oceans, vast territory, and a lot of national responsibility, Canada has to think about how we meet those responsibilities—that's what the Canada First defence strategy is all about—and then how we take that to the broader community of NATO.

What we found over time, especially now that we have things like the C-17 that gives us strategic airlift and things like that, is our ability to bring that expeditionary quality to NATO. We have a tremendous flexibility and an ability to sustain that a lot of our allies don't have, and that's because of our own national requirements: being able to go long distances, being able to sustain, having our armed forces members—and again, Brian can speak to this in more detail—plan for difficult operations, whether they're in Canada or abroad. So we bring an expertise and a training to the NATO family.

Also, increasingly, we've been using enablers, like UAVs and other things, to bring to NATO. Canada's track record of bringing our capability to NATO, and sustaining it, is one of the best in the alliance.

I don't know, Brian, if you'd like to add, or if, Chair, he might....

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Go ahead.

11:20 a.m.

Colonel Brian Irwin Director, NATO Policy, Department of National Defence

Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for this opportunity.

Just building on the comments, again, as we go towards Chicago, smart defence really fits within a larger look for delivering on what we agreed to in Lisbon, and for how we would achieve NATO's level of ambition, looking out to the year 2020 and beyond, in regard to the types of capabilities the alliance would need to have collectively to address its level of ambition. Within that, I think you will see emerging...and smart defence is really a part of it. It's about a framework. It's about a framework where nations can, either nationally or multinationally, contribute to that collective capability package.

I think part of smart defence is about encouraging some nations to perhaps pool certain capabilities. I think there are some obvious ones there. You have the Baltics, where it might make sense for them to collectively deliver some of the capabilities that NATO looks for.

But within that broader framework of delivering a capability to NATO, either multinationally or nationally, I think Canada is very well placed with those national capabilities in how it contributes. I'm happy to go into more details, of course.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I understand. Because of the operations in which we have participated, either recently or over the years, I am well aware that Canada is currently in a good position. But, in the future, we still have to take an approach that will allow us to maintain our financial capability.

Given what has gone before, I would like to know if there are things that we would tend to develop less in the future. Will the question of smart defence be dealt with in Chicago too? Financially speaking, will we be able to keep our needs at the current level by using our acquisitions a little more strategically?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence

Jill Sinclair

Mr. Chairman, if I may say so, that's what smart defence is all about—for sure.

What NATO does—I think it's on an annual basis, Brian—is a comprehensive list of what capabilities we can bring to the alliance, and then there are discussions around whether there are overlaps or duplication. As Colonel Irwin said, the pooling of resources is a more useful discussion for European allies, in a way, just because they're closer together and they can deploy those and develop them in a closer kind of geographic space. So we have some very interesting initiatives there, like the air policing that the Baltic nations have done.

When it comes to Canada, as you've also said, we have to look at what our obligations are vis-à-vis the United States for NORAD. So we're looking at that multiplicity of the defence commitments and then at what we can bring to the pooled NATO smart or smarter defence effort.

I think we have found that our new capabilities such as the strategic airlift, for example.... As I was saying, this is something that has definitely been an enabler. The helicopters.... We've learned a lot from the operations in Afghanistan. Also, it's our ability to deploy quickly. We have tended to deploy without caveats. I mean, these sound a little ethereal, but they're extremely important. Also, it's to be able to sustain that deployment, which makes us a real asset, and I think it enables us to play into that NATO space most effectively.

In terms of national governments tailoring their national defence budgets to the overall smarter defence framework you've talked about, we're at a very early stage, I think, of having that discussion. As I say, amongst the Baltic countries, it's easier for some of the smaller ones. It's a very first step, but I think we'll have to see what the follow-up to Chicago is in terms of smart defence.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Your time is up.

Madam Gallant, you have the floor.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Perhaps as a victim of its own successes, learned Canadians question the necessity for a country to be a member of NATO. Why are Canada's participation and membership in NATO important to our country?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence

Jill Sinclair

NATO is a collective defence organization, a community of interest, and, as I say, a political-military organization. We tend to focus on those skeptics who say there's no military threat, so why do you need a NATO? Well, it belies or ignores the importance of the dialogue on the consultation that happens on a range of issues, from cyber-security to how you deal with weapons of mass destruction.

This is a community of values and interests, as well as a military alliance. Frankly, at the end of the day, it is a military alliance, too, and when something like 9/11 happens, it enables us to work together with our closest like-minded partners in defence of our common values and interests.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you.

As we begin our current study on NATO and the strategic concept paper, I think it's important that we as members of the committee have a solid understanding of what Canada's current contributions to NATO missions are. Can you describe them?

11:25 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

Great. Sure. Just very, very quickly, I'm running through the largest to the smallest.

Certainly in Afghanistan, there's the commitment to the ISAF mission. I'm sure you're all well aware of the commitment of trainers to the NATO training mission.

NATO's other missions.... In Kosovo that mission has drawn down significantly. We remain with a small Canadian presence participating within the headquarters.

NATO has a couple of maritime missions. One in the Mediterranean, Operation Active Endeavour, is a counterterrorism mission. We've had a ship deployed in the Mediterranean supporting that mission from time to time. As well, NATO has undertaken a counter-piracy mission, Operation Ocean Shield, off the Horn of Africa in the Gulf of Aden. There as well we've contributed right from the onset of that mission. We're not currently contributing to it, but we have.

Effectively, those are the larger missions.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Approximately what number of troops and personnel does the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces have committed in NATO, excluding operations?

11:30 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

If you were to talk about the NATO command structure itself, NATO's standing framework, it's about 350. That number will come and go, but that's what's contributed to the headquarters, both in North America and in Europe.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

What sorts of roles and responsibilities do they have?

11:30 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

Quite a wide range. I'm sure you are all familiar with General Bouchard.

From NATO's headquarters in SHAPE, where they command operations through to its subordinate headquarters such as the one in Naples, we have a number of Canadians occupying positions of leadership. General Bouchard is the deputy commander in Naples. Within all those staffs you will see Canadians embedded throughout.

So it's a large command structure of roughly about 8,000. Within that about 350 Canadians are currently deployed.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Along the same lines as the previous questions about Canadian contributions to NATO, what would be the financial commitments that Canada has to the alliance?

11:30 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

I'd be happy to run through those figures as well.

Just as context, NATO's annual budget—both the budget of operations and the budget for investment—is about $3 billion, of which Canada contributes 5.94%. I think this year that translates into about $183 million.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

So that percentage then is the annual contribution. Is there an additional amount over and above what is required as the so-called annual contribution?

11:30 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

There's a framework for those contributions based on OECD recognized figures, gross national incomes. Those would be the contributions.

There are other programs that can be contributed to, but those lie outside or above and beyond—a research and development establishment where there might be a small contribution and the like.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Has our level of contribution changed substantially over the last five to ten years?

11:30 a.m.

Col Brian Irwin

There's been a gradual.... There was a resetting of those contributions about five years ago, so there's been a gradual rebalancing, recognizing nations' gross national incomes.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

In the 2010 national strategic concept paper, it set out a framework for NATO over the next 10 years. There's no doubt it's a very important document and will have an impact on the way Canada approaches joint or multilateral operations in the future.

What goals did Canada have going into the Lisbon meetings, and have these goals been met?