National Defence Committee on Nov. 1st, 2012

[Col Scott McLeod]

The responsibility of the third-party contractor is to look for those care providers to fill those spots.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay, but how do you advertise for a position as a public servant?

[Col Scott McLeod]

We do that in a variety of different ways: publications, professional journals.... Recently we went to the Canadian Psychiatric Association meetings. The Surgeon General and our senior psychiatrists were there speaking and presenting and talking about options for working in the Canadian Forces, trying to attract people to the Canadian Forces and trying to encourage people to work in the multidisciplinary team we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We're going to our last seven-minute question.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Colonel McLeod.

You have what I would consider a fairly sensible five points with respect to how you evaluate treatments, therapies, recommendations, and things of that nature. I want to focus on the fifth one, which says, “The benefit sustains or restores a serving member to an operationally effective and deployable status.” Isn't this criterion just an invitation for the soldier to bury his illness?

[Col Scott McLeod]

I should point out that you don't have to meet all five criteria to be selected. We also look at if this is going to be able to improve the member's health, if the therapy is proven to improve health, and even at if we can help the person transition to a different job or even if it helps transition them out of the military, if necessary, but into a productive way of life. So it's not necessarily.... Ideally, what we always want to do is return our soldiers to full duty and back to what they do, realizing—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

It does kind of fly in the face of the universality of service principle, though, in the sense that most soldiers want to stay in the job that they're in—

[Col Scott McLeod]

Absolutely.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

If they believe, rightly or wrongly, that the doctor is going to say, “Sorry, buddy, you're on a desk job”, or “Really, you should be looking at taking up carpentry”, doesn't this work against the notion that the military is trying to help the soldier get better?

[Col Scott McLeod]

That is a very good point. It is one of the things that we continue to struggle with.

This is what we do. If we can get soldiers into care as soon as possible—to present early with their symptoms—we have a much better chance of getting them back to duty. It's always a challenge, because soldiers fear that if they present, they could be put on temporary categories or restricted service, restricted duties. That's not what they want. We've found that over the last few years, as we've had greater success in getting people in, getting them treated early, and returning them to duty, more people are starting to come forward. They're saying that they don't want this to get to the point where it's beyond treatment. If they get treatment and get that high-quality care early, their chances of returning to their job are better.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you.

My second question is for Ms. Hull.

Colonel McLeod says in his presentation that “it is unknown whether animal-assisted therapy is more or less effective than these alternative therapies”. He's applying, if you will, a scientific analysis of the therapies that both of you are proposing and saying that it's nice, but there's no evidence. Do you agree with that?

[Marie Josée Hull]

I would agree the evidence isn't there, because the money is not there to study this type of therapy, but in my practice I've found that not only do the evidence-based approaches work, and treating a person who has severe trauma.... When we're dealing with trauma in soldiers, they seem to have even more than the normal kind of trauma. They are placed in traumatic experiences. Sometimes it's complex trauma with many experiences over a long period. It's not a one-size-fits-all...so you have to go with what the person can relate to.

The processes that are evidence-based right now, like CPT and CBT, are very effective when you have a member who does well with that type of therapy, but there are some who I can't get to that level because they're too...[Inaudible—Editor].

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

You were extremely articulate in explaining to people who don't actually understand what it is you do and what the impact is. Yet I have, if you will, Colonel McLeod saying that we don't have any evidence. In some respects, those are irreconcilable positions. Would it be your recommendation that something like a pilot project...?

[Marie Josée Hull]

Oh, definitely. I think it would be really valuable to do that. Unfortunately, equine-assisted therapies are not very old. They haven't been around. They do require us to look at many things also, but they are very efficient. I think that a pilot study specifically for military vet members would be—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Do you have any other veterans' organizations or soldier-type organizations that actually support your work?

[Marie Josée Hull]

I've just asked Veterans Affairs if they would allow me to do it with a particular gentleman who has some cognitive limitations, and I was told no.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I recently had the experience of going to the University of British Columbia, where I saw a veterans transition program, which I thought was really quite impressive.

Without getting into all of the details, it appeared that the Legion supported them, the Wounded Warriors supported them, and various others supported them. Everybody supported them except the Government of Canada, which, to his great credit, Minister Blaney rectified this week. Initially it was, “This is just a bunch of soldiers sitting around in a circle sharing their experiences and singing Kumbaya, so why is the Government of Canada putting money into it?”

You think a pilot project would be a good idea, Ms. Hull.

And I'm assuming you would think so, Ms. Vandergragt.

[A voice]

Yes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

What's your reaction, Colonel McLeod?

[Col Scott McLeod]

I think a pilot project...anything that gathers the information that could prove a therapy for our soldiers, we would support. I mean, we're always looking for ways to improve the health care of any soldier suffering with mental illness, so if there was interest in doing that, we would support that type of pilot project. The—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But you're saying “if there was interest in doing it”. Who is the entity that needs to be interested in doing it?

[Col Scott McLeod]

I think the folks who actually do the equine therapy are the experts in that field—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

They seem to be interested.

[Col Scott McLeod]

Yes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!