Evidence of meeting #64 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was case.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Holloway  Professor and Dean, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Bruno Hamel  Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board
Jean-Marie Dugas  Former Director, Canadian Forces Defense Lawyers, As an Individual

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Hold on now. Section 1 is not for military; section 1 is for everybody. So you would agree that by pointing out specifically the exclusion of trial by jury in a court martial situation—and I won't go into the Latin, because we both know the Latin phrase—and by accepting that, the implication is that the charter actually does apply.

5:10 p.m.

Professor and Dean, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Ian Holloway

Of course the charter applies to everyone.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That's my one question. Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Mr. McKay.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Going back to this whole business of ex gratia and your view that it's maybe a step forward, I might suggest to you that it's a step sideways rather than a step forward. If I look at your recommendation, it says:

The board recommends that the statutory authority of the CDS as Final Authority be amended in such a way so as to ensure that he/she has an appropriate financial delegation. This will enable him/her to make a decision on financial compensation where this form of relief is sought as redress.

The way I read that, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that the CDS can take your recommendation and make a decision and write a cheque.

So what is different about this order in council from June of last year?

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board

Bruno Hamel

There are two sets to this. That was last year's annual report, and at the time that order providing the CDS the ex gratia payment was not out yet. That remedy was not available at the time, so that recommendation has to be put in that context.

Also, when the CDS finds that a member meets the conditions of the regulation, he does not write a cheque, but in fact entitles a member to a benefit. It has to be very clear that if the chain of command finds that a member does not meet the condition and it denies a benefit, but the CDS by being the decision-maker and making a finding of fact finds that the griever meets conditions a, b and c, then entitlement to the benefit will open up. In fact, he has entitled the member to the benefit. That's something that needs to be separated out.

In those cases where something goes wrong and the member does not meet the policy and you cannot use ex gratia but fundamentally the right thing to do would be to compensate the member, this is what I believe the CDS is currently lacking, which falls short of the Lamer recommendation. So he does have that part of ex gratia when nothing else applies, but when something does apply and the member does not meet the conditions but something must be done financially, the Chief of the Defence Staff is still limited to referring the case to the director of complaints and civil litigations for him or her to review and assess the claim. The CDS cannot—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

And he regularly denies that. He denies everything.

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board

Bruno Hamel

It can be that the member does not meet the regulations.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

From what I understand, he has a perfect record. He denies everything.

Let's go back on this. What has been accomplished by virtue of this change?

5:15 p.m.

Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board

Bruno Hamel

I'll give you an example. It's one of my cases. I'll give you a brief summary. The member does not fit within a particular policy. He was a reservist who was denied some services. The policy did not apply to him given that his service—I'm going to call it a contract although it's not a contract—had not started. We cannot apply the policy of the 30 days in that particular case. However, the member was denied his opportunity or was told less than 24 hours before he started employment that his employment was going to be delayed. It enabled us to say it's not part of the policy; it's not part of anything.

There is no other remedy possible, because as a reservist, if you do not serve, you do not get paid. We could apply in this particular case the ex gratia payment to say that the right thing in this case—no fault was admitted, and no tort was admitted—was to give you potentially up to x amount of money to compensate for the short delay you had. This is one example where that particular piece of legislation will actually potentially help a griever.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

The bells have started to ring. We know it's a 30-minute bell.

I will ask the committee to give us unanimous consent so we can continue on with this meeting.

We'll give one last question to Mr. Alexander, and then we'll go in camera.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Very briefly I'd just like to say how impressed I am—and I think some of my colleagues are—by the general level of confidence that you all show in the military justice system and the prospects for improving it through Bill C-15 and subsequent improvements. I would like to reassure you that the government maintains its commitment to amend clause 75 relating to criminal records, which would have the effect of excluding approximately 95% of convictions from summary trials if you take a recent sample from trials resulting in a criminal record.

Given that we intend to make that improvement as well and given that the LeSage recommendations are still under review, do you—I guess I'm putting this to Dean Holloway and Mr. Dugas—agree that the changes in Bill C-15 will constitute a substantive improvement to the summary trial system?

5:15 p.m.

Former Director, Canadian Forces Defense Lawyers, As an Individual

Jean-Marie Dugas

Definitely. It's a very good improvement from what we have now.

And if I may, I will take 10 seconds to say how proud I am to see how well you've done your homework. It's always a pleasure to be here just because of that.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all three of our witnesses for appearing today, for helping us with our study of Bill C-15 , and for providing recommendations and advice. We appreciate that counsel.

I also want to thank all three of you for your military service and your service to our country. Thank you for the personal sacrifices you have to make in serving in the Canadian armed forces.

With that, I want to entertain a motion to suspend the meeting, and when I drop the gavel, I'm going to ask everyone who's not with a member of Parliament to vacate the room.

Is there a motion to suspend?

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

So moved.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]