Evidence of meeting #67 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was grievance.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael R. Gibson  Deputy Judge Advocate General of Military Justice, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Department of National Defence

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

As reluctant as I am, I agree with Mr. Alexander. I know it's shocking.

One, he's right on the point that “far-reaching implications” is not a precisely defined term in law, and we prefer precision over non-precision; and two, I think it mines too far into what is ultimately a CDS discretion. He or she is the CDS for good reason. At some point or another you cannot regulate, by legislation or otherwise, that decision-making process.

As reluctant as I am, I don't think this amendment should pass.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Harris.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I'm sorry to hear the comments of my friend. I guess I'll call you both learned friends—learned in different spheres.

I can only rely on the people who seem to be heroes for the other side when it suits their arguments, but who are ignored when it doesn't. Mr. Justice Lamer, who has been praised fulsomely by the opposition when they agree with what he says, is being ignored in this case. Mr. Justice LeSage, who is also fulsomely praised—

4:35 p.m.

An hon member

Not by the government.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Well, I've heard the learned gentleman from the JAG praise the opinion of Mr. Justice LeSage and Mr. Justice Lamer on behalf of the government. As you told us, they were speaking on behalf of the government, so we take them at their word.

Mr. Justice LeSage's recommendation 41 was, “The CDS should be permitted to delegate his role as the final adjudicator in all but those cases that have far-reaching implications for the Canadian Forces”. That's where the choice of words comes from: a retired justice of the court. Although the words may be imprecise, their intention is very clear.

Mr. Justice Lamer, in his report, recommended that, “the Chief of Defence Staff be given authority to delegate...the powers, duties or functions...as final authority in the grievance process”.

He said:

Notwithstanding the above, I recommend that the officer to whom the Chief of Defence Staff delegates be required to submit to the Chief of Defence Staff for final adjudication all grievances that fall within guidelines to be established by the Chief of Defence Staff (e.g., grievances that have policy implications for the Canadian Forces, affect the capacity of the Canadian Forces, and/or have significant financial implications).

These are examples, I would submit, of grievances that would have far-reaching implications. Mr. Justice Lamer suggests that the final adjudication of these grievances be retained by the Chief of the Defence Staff. That's where the argument comes from. That's where the suggestion comes from.

We had a philosophical notion that the Chief of the Defence Staff should not be disengaged from the grievance system because that's where you find out where the bugs are. You find out when things aren't working when people file grievances. If you have 500 grievances on a particular topic, you might get the hint there's something serious going on in a particular area or field, or potentially in a particular command. This is the way for the Chief of the Defence Staff to be seen to be personally interested and aware of what's causing disgruntlement in the system.

We have a grievance system that has its warts. Improvements have been called for, and some have been made. To permit a wholesale delegation of the powers of the Chief of the Defence Staff, having jealously guarded them, which we just did when we tried to give the military judges some independence.... Now we're saying they're going to be jealously guarded by the CDS with the final authority, but he can delegate it in this manner, without any significant controls on that power, other than saying a military judge's grievance can't be delegated, or if an officer grieves it can't be delegated to someone of lesser rank. Well, these are two modest limitations.

I submit the integrity of the authority and role of the CDS would require that all of these grievances that end up, using LeSage's words, “having far-reaching implications to the Canadian Forces”, to in fact be personally determined. At the end of the day, I don't mind having somebody else do the work. As Mr. Justice Lamer recommended, you could delegate the work, but it has to come back to the Chief of the Defence Staff for final adjudication so it's not actually a delegation of the final authority.

Having said that and relying on the independent reviews that this government has asked for and paid for and sought from the highest authority, then I think we should honour those suggestions and recommendations and ensure that grievances that have significant implications for the capacity of the Canadian Forces, significant financial implications, significant policy implications, be determined by the Chief of the Defence Staff and not by some delegation.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Are there other comments on the amendment?

(Amendment negatived)

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We're on clause 9.

Any other comments on clause 9?

(Clause 9 agreed to on division)

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Clause 9.1, which is a new clause that's been proposed by the NDP, is NDP-11, reference number 5944194. I'm going to rule this inadmissible as it infringes on the financial initiative of the crown and imposes a charge on the public treasury in the instance the charge on the treasury be cost awarded by the Federal Court to the applicant in a grievance action.

As you see, that is determined specifically in clause 3 where they talk about costs on a solicitor-client basis. That's inadmissible.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

We anticipated that, sir.

So reference number 5996242, NDP-12 leaves out that particular clause. There's one subsection there, subsection 29(3) and—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Now that would create a new clause as well. You're talking about NDP-12?

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

NDP-12 amended by adding a clause.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

After section 29.15.

So would you withdraw that one then?

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

No, the first one is withdrawn.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

So NDP-12 is still in order?

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

NDP-11 is withdrawn or ruled out of order. NDP-12—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Is still admissible or creating a new clause.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That's creating a new clause 9.1.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

If you wish to move that to the floor you may.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

We're moving NDP-12 now.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

That's reference number 5996242 for those who are following on that basis.

Mr. Harris, the floor is yours.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I'll take the floor in a second.

This is essentially to ensure that the grievance process operates properly. The complaint has been—and we've seen this, we've heard this before, we've heard it again—that the process has been changed to the extent that grievances are now being dealt with in a more timely fashion, but we still have people waiting two and three years to get their grievances heard.

This provides a remedy essentially that if somebody's grievance has gone more than 12 months there's no automatic finding of the grievance in his favour or anything like that. It simply allows them to go to court and ask for an order that something be done. It could be 30 days, 60 days, six months, but it at least allows an individual who has a grievance that's been outstanding for 12 months—and the limit is set here—that it should be dealt with within 12 months.

If it doesn't happen then a person can go to the Federal Court and say they have a grievance that hasn't been dealt with and would like a resolution. It would at least require the authorities to either provide an answer or tell the court why the matter couldn't have been resolved in the 12-month period and indicate the circumstance and situation and the judge would then determine an appropriate remedy.

Obviously the desire would be to have some enforceable mechanism that says 12 months is enough to deal with a grievance. If you can't deal with it then, the court will decide how quickly you should deal with it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Alexander.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

We think the amendment goes beyond the scope of the bill as passed at second reading.

But more importantly, Mr. Chair, this is not the right place to enshrine time limits for grievances. They should be governed by regulation. They should be governed, as is often the case, by more flexible means than legislation. And that is the case right now.

There are service standards. There are impressive efforts under way to overcome the grievance backlog. As Mr. Harris himself has said, there's been progress made on that front.

But there are cases, grievances of sufficient gravity, where more than 12 months is required. And that has been the case in the past.

I would challenge any member of our committee to argue that there have not been cases of a complexity that would have required occasionally, from time to time, more than 12 months. We would hate to see the ability of the grievances committee to do its job effectively, to look at all aspects, to allow for due process in a very complex case, fettered by an arbitrary time limitation of 12 months in the legislation.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. McKay.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Normally I would not support this kind of an amendment, and analogizing to a civil system or a non-military system I think the 12 months would be quite arbitrary. But in this particular case I support it, only because the military is a closed culture.

One of the things that kills morale faster than anything else is an outstanding grievance. If, in fact, on the one hand you have to have a system that is not dealing with problems as the grievers think they should be dealt with, you're going to get all kinds of collateral damage, which I don't think is necessary or desirable.

My thought on this is that if you don't send up a red flag, then no one will salute it. So in this particular case, because it is a military culture, I think it should be dealt with expeditiously. I don't know that you can leave it to just guidelines.