National Defence Committee on Nov. 4th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Point made.

Can you simplify your question on reform?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

As a member of the joint staff you obviously have issues involving different aspects of the military. Do you have a concern, and does the staff have a concern, that other aspects of the military might be affected by it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

We have a point of order.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

I have a point of order as it's not relevant to the study at hand. It's not relevant to the issue at hand, which is talking about ISIL and our efforts in Iraq.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The cost of the mission is relevant to the operation of the department of defence.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

I think I have the floor, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Yes, point made.

Mr. Harris, the witness is free to answer or to decline.

[MGen Michael Hood]

I would simply say, Mr. Harris, and I think we discussed this in my last piece here, that the impact of those flying errors and the rest are within what we'd expect to be able to manage. It's not having any impact on any other commitments at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, General.

That's time, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Bezan, please, five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank you gentlemen for coming in and providing your expertise today. I hope that you convey back to everyone in the Canadian Armed Forces whether they are in theatre, dealing with the ISIL threat, or they are back at home in supporting roles, that we are very appreciative of the work that they are doing and the courage and bravery that they are showing in this incredible operation.

Major-General Hood, you mentioned in your comments how in the 25 original flights we delivered over 1.6 million pounds of cargo to the Kurds and Iraqi security forces that were donated by Albania and the Czech Republic. Can you talk about what some of that military equipment is and how it is being used?

[MGen Michael Hood]

First of all, Mr. Bezan, thank you very much for your comments in opening. I will certainly be sure to pass that on and we appreciate the support.

I can speak to specifically what was carried out. I can't speak to where it's seeing action at this moment. We've handed this over to Iraqi security forces. It's a varied mix of general military aid, which includes a number of munitions. The Kurdish peshmerga use weapons that were similar to what former Soviet republics will have used, hence Albania and the Czech Republic had quite a large stock of a specific calibre of bullets, 7.62 instead of 5.56 that we use; rocket-propelled grenades, typically in a small arms regime; as well as some military aid, sleeping bags, and equipment that would prove useful to them.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

That was stuff that was incredibly handy for them. They are trained on it, they know how to use it, and there's easy adaptability, which is different from bringing in new technology and having to train. In some cases the heavier armaments would take months to learn versus putting it into direct use in the fight against ISIL.

Some of the questions that we've already had related to the Iraqi security forces. We had a number of members of the Iraqi security forces who surrendered. A lot of them went and joined ISIL and that's where they get a lot of their military capabilities from and command structures, because of a number of generals who treasonously went to the other side. My understanding is that they also took with them a lot of U.S.-built equipment. There is also Russian-origin equipment in the hands of ISIL. There's a lot of Balkans military equipment that had been provided through other sources, and I mentioned a stockpile of armaments coming from Libya. Can you talk about what capabilities they do have and how that has played into their success in the region?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I can.

I should probably just specify the previous points because I don't want there to be a misunderstanding. Some of the senior members of ISIL are former Baath Party Iraqi senior officers who at the end of the Second Gulf War would have been no longer employed in the Iraqi military as part of the de-Baathification. So while they have the experience it's not like they were in the Iraqi security forces yesterday and walked across.

Some of the equipment that ISIL has they brought with them from Syria, so there's some former Syrian equipment. In overrunning certain positions they do have some Iraqi equipment, which is of U.S. origin. But the technical expertise to maintain them at that level...you're starting to see those slowly degrade as well as the fact of coalition air strikes degrading that. There's a wide range of equipment that you would have seen from tanks to artillery weapons. There are also technical vehicles, which would just be a typical pickup truck with a heavy weapon in the back. There is a wide range of source material in that case.

[RAdm Gilles Couturier]

Sir, if I might add to that, when ISIL moved kind of east towards Iraq, some U.S. equipment was left behind in some areas. We all saw in the press the talk about some of the banks that had been robbed in order to help ISIL finance their work, so that's part of those levels of equipment. There were no high-level armaments left behind by the Americans, but there were some trucks and armoured vehicles, as Mike just mentioned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Mr. Harris, please, for five minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have a report here prepared by the parliamentary information research service dealing with the equipment that ISIL has, it's believed, from sources. I notice that they have access to, as mentioned, maybe 60 or 70 battle tanks, but they also have MANPADS, shoulder-launched, both U.S.-made and Russian-made, and anti-aircraft guns. I don't know if these so-called MANPADS, the portable ones, have the range to go near our F-18s or the C-140s, but what about the anti-aircraft guns? Is there a concern about the safety of our air crews in these circumstances?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I think I mentioned earlier, Mr. Harris, that certainly no military operation is without risk, but our intelligence sources in the military typically have access to the same type of information that you're reading there. We have an understanding of the range and capability of those weapons, so to the greatest extent possible, we would ensure that we limit the exposure of Canadian Forces assets into the effective ranges of those weapons.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would your intelligence and capability for surveillance have knowledge of where these might be located, particularly the anti-aircraft guns?

[MGen Michael Hood]

If we know where they are, or if the coalition knew where they were, they're being hit. These are very mobile weapons, as you would expect, but certainly it is an area of concern that we take seriously. I guarantee you that it's probably near the top of that prioritized target list that we spoke of earlier.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

One of the issues that's of concern as well is that I know ISIS relies on foreign fighters and a heavy recruitment operation carried on in large measure in the Middle East, but also internationally through the use of the Internet. I know that some countries have been active in looking at strategies to deal with that. I read a couple of days ago about a conference that was held in Kuwait, where the U.S., Britain, France, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, etc., were all participating. General John Allen from the U.S. was present. But we didn't participate in that.

They were trying to look at strategies for dealing with the recruiting operation by playing a role in the Internet. Is that something, whether the military is involved in that or not...? Canada wasn't there, which I find a little bit surprising. Is that part of the strategy for dealing with ISIS in Iraq as well? Obviously it's not strictly a military hardware operation, but we do have CSEC at work, and I guess the question is, is Canada involved in that aspect of it as well?

[MGen Michael Hood]

Certainly, as I mentioned previously, when we talk about lines of operation in the campaign, that's an area that is of concern, that is, the radicalization and the bringing forward of these folks through various means. I'm not familiar with the conference you're speaking to, nor can I confirm whether or not Canadian participation was there. I know that the coalition writ large is considering options to take advantage of certain capabilities they may have, but in this case, Mr. Harris, the Canadian Forces is not.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I know that Canadian Foreign Affairs indicated that Canada was not present. I'm just wondering on the military side, and particularly through CSEC, is that something that is being coordinated with the other coalition partners as a means of assisting in preventing or, to use the favourite phrase, “degrading” the ability of ISIL to recruit foreign fighters in the manner that they have been through the Internet? It seems to me to be an area of grave concern. But here's my question, and perhaps Rear-Admiral Couturier could answer this. Is this something that, from an intelligence response, is being actively pursued?

[MGen Michael Hood]

Sir, I would have to take that question under advisement. I'm not aware, but I'll take that question under advisement and make sure that we get you the answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

That is your time.

Thank you very much, General.

Mr. Bezan, for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

For clarification, we're still in second round, are we not?