National Defence Committee on Feb. 7th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Good afternoon, everybody.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on National Defence as we continue our discussion on diversity within the Canadian Armed Forces.

I'd like to welcome, from Reserves 2000, retired Lieutenant-Colonel John Selkirk, executive director.

Sir, thank you for coming. I'll yield the floor to you for your opening remarks.

[Lieutenant-Colonel, Retired) John Selkirk (Executive Director, Reserves 2000]

Thank you for inviting comments from Reserves 2000 on diversity in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I've testified here before, so some of you have probably heard this little speech. Reserves 2000 is an alliance of Canadians who advocate providing more defence capability with part-time citizen soldiers. Our membership is nationwide and consists of Canadians from all walks of life, including retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces, both regular and reserve; academics; educators; community leaders; and others concerned with the defence and security of Canada.

Knowing I was coming here, I consulted with many of these members, and what I have to say this afternoon reflects the thoughts of our supporters from across the country.

My first comment is that overall, the reserves, and by this I mean the primary reserves, and of course the army reserve is the largest part, can be described as the component leading the Canadian Armed Forces in diversity, especially in the larger and more diverse population centres. In fact, this has been the case for a long time.

Now, Reserves 2000 does not collect data on diversity in the reserves, but there is information published by the Department of National Defence and publicly available, especially on gender diversity. In terms of gender diversity, according to data dating from March 2018 the percentage of women in the reserve force was slightly higher, at 16.3%, than the 14.9% found in the regular force. We are aware of the goal stated in the defence policy statement “Strong, Secure, Engaged” to increase the percentage of women in the Canadian Armed Forces to 25% over the next 10 years.

Recent policy changes have been made to allow army reserve units to make the units themselves responsible for attraction, recruiting and enrolment instead of using the very centralized process that existed before. The shift to local authority has seen a surge in recruiting success, and there is no reason to believe that the number of female recruits will not continue to grow in the months and years ahead. If they can be retained, the critical mass of women will grow, which in itself should assist with retaining even more women.

A new program of guaranteed summer employment for four summers after enrolment should help to retain more new reserve soldiers of both genders.

I would say, then, that the army reserve is even better positioned today to help the CAF meet the gender diversity goal stated in the defence policy.

These army reserve recruiting and retention initiatives should also attract and retain more members of other populations that are now under-represented in the Canadian Armed Force. There are, after all, 123 army reserve units located in 117 communities across Canada.

Where there is ethnic diversity, in particular in large metropolitan areas, army reserve units already reflect this diversity to a remarkable degree. In smaller communities, units are not as diverse for the simple reason those communities are not as diverse as the larger, metropolitan areas.

Decentralizing recruiting in the army reserve has already produced increased enrolment of new members from traditionally under-represented populations. Allowing units more autonomy in advertising and other methods of attraction could help to increase the percentage of these soldiers even more by allowing units to target potential recruits from under-represented populations more efficiently.

Each area of this vast nation of ours has its own distinct communities, and it's the units themselves that are best positioned to know what works best for them. Now, at this particular time units have very limited advertising budgets, and the messaging they do manage is quite tightly controlled from the centre.

With that said, it must be understood that while gender percentages are known and are being tracked, the same is not necessarily true for ethnic diversity. In fact, there's an article in the Globe and Mail today which points out that we don't collect this kind of information, whether it's in the armed forces or anywhere else.

Having a better database would allow better programs for attraction and retention to be developed, as well as provide the army chain of command with important information on skills that those soldiers may possess—for example, language skills beyond the two official languages—which could be hugely important to achieving success on future deployments.

Finally, I want to say a word about quotas. Supporters of Reserves 2000 are pleased that the defence policy statement speaks in terms of goals and not quotas. It is felt that setting quotas to meet the goals of more diversity would only contribute to inefficiency, dissatisfaction and probably even lower enrolment. The army reserve has shown the ability to increase diversity without quotas, and new recruiting and retention policies have opened the door to even greater success. We say let us continue on that path of success.

I would like to conclude my remarks with those very general terms.

I am sure you have questions of more detail, which I will attempt to answer today. If I don't have an answer, I will find out and get back to you in writing, or whatever other method you might wish me to use.

That concludes my opening remarks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you, sir.

As you pointed out, you've been here before.

I'm going to give the first slot of seven minutes to Mr. Robillard.

The floor is yours.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. I will start with some questions for Lieutenant-Colonel Selkirk.

Your time in the armed forces has enabled you to observe progress made in terms of female representation. Can you give us some concrete examples of the benefits of increased diversity in that regard, especially with respect to women's participation in the decision-making process?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

As you say, I've seen the landscape change dramatically since I joined the army in 1960. In those days, we had a Canadian Women's Army Corps, CWAC, and they were segregated into that organization. Since then, of course, women have been participating in every trade and officer classification across the whole of the Canadian Armed Forces. I've seen a remarkable increase in the number of women in uniform.

In my personal opinion, and I think in the opinion of almost all Reserves 2000 supporters, who include a good number of women supporters, it's been nothing but good for the Canadian Armed Forces and for Canada. I think a lot of good things happen when women and men work together. Let's face it: Men can learn a lot from listening. I think it's been only good for the Canadian Forces.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The report by Ms. Deschamps and the Auditor General identified the need for a cultural change within the Canadian Armed Forces. What factors should our committee consider in order to measure and assess that cultural change?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

I think the biggest problem there is how do you assess change in culture. What sort of specific markers can you put out there, so you can say, “Okay, we had three of those last year and now have five”?

I think it needs to be monitored, but I'm not sure how you would do that. Obviously, this committee can have an effect on changing culture and I would encourage you to do everything you can. I certainly don't have any specific ideas on how you would get that job done or how the armed forces would get that job done.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Visible minority representation has also grown in recent years.

In your experience, how does that diversity benefit the Canadian Armed Forces? How might the Canadian Armed Forces benefit even more from that diversity?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

First, it helps the Canadian Armed Forces, and I'm really going to just speak about the army reserve here. It helps because tapping into communities, beyond the traditional French, English, white communities, you're obviously opening up the potential of the bigger pool, so you can attract more recruits. That's good. Units can grow that way. They know that and they're working on it.

Second, for the nation, I think it's fabulous because—I could talk for 20 minutes about this—new Canadians are given an opportunity to participate in an important national program. I'm sure they feel better about that; so many want to do that.

The other big thing that I think is really important to the Canadian Armed Forces is the potential of those communities to assist in achieving the missions that the army and the rest of the forces have to achieve.

For example, on overseas deployments, it's important that you can work with the local population and there are lots of places where most of us don't speak those languages. However, somewhere in the Canadian mosaic there are people from that community and we need to bring them in if we can. We have to identify them as well and I don't think that we.... Certainly, in the recruiting process the individuals are asked, I suppose, what language they speak, but that is just the two official languages. I think we need to do a better job about it.

I have anecdotal stories about the deployment in Afghanistan. We had people there who pretty much spoke the local language but nobody knew about it. That's a terrible waste if that goes on.

I think there's enormous potential from the point of view of the units themselves. They want to do this. I think it's good for Canada, but I also think that if we knew what we had or had a better idea of what—I'm sorry, I shouldn't say “we”. If the army had a better idea of what they actually have in their inventory of personnel, I think it would be incredibly helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You have about a minute for a question and a response.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Maybe one of my colleagues....

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Selkirk, thanks again for coming back to our committee.

In your opening remarks, you talked about how to target under-represented areas of the population. Can you give us an example as to how you think that under-represented areas could be targeted?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

Mr. Gerretsen, I think that the best way to do it is the old word of mouth. Once you get one individual or a couple of individuals into a reserve unit from an ethnic community, if those people are treated right and they really feel that this is a good thing to do, they're going to go back and talk to their friends about that and then we'll get more and more.

I think the key is to try to have a foot in the door, if you wish, of as many communities as is possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to hold it there. You've met your time.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'll pick up when I—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Yes. You'll get another opportunity.

Go ahead, MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colonel Selkirk, welcome back. I'm going to have to get you out to my riding sometime to see the beautiful city of Selkirk, your namesake, right on the great Red River.

I appreciate all the work that you've done over the years on Reserves 2000. It's largely because of the advocacy of Reserves 2000 that we are now seeing the autonomy return to units in recruitment.

What are our units' strengths sitting at now compared to where they were before the change in strategy on reserve units going out to find their own members?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

Thank you for that question, Mr. Bezan.

I'm trying to think of the latest numbers I was given on the increase in overall strength. I think since recruiting has been returned to units, the reserve army which was probably hovering around 18,000, all up, total strength, is now about 1,000 stronger, so 19,000 or so. That may not sound like a lot, but for years and years the graph was going the other way. Now it's on the increase.

There are two factors. It's not just getting more recruits in the door; it's retaining them as well. The other policy that the army has put in place, the summer employment for four years after they first joined, didn't get a chance to really bite last summer, but we're all hoping that this summer and the years ahead, this will start that slope of increase to be even steeper.

It is working. There's no question about it.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Already you're saying the percentage of women in reserve units is running about 1.5% higher than in the regular force. Do you attribute that to the fact that reserve units are in a community and that it is part-time and more conducive to the busy lifestyles of women and being close to family?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

That's my personal opinion and the opinion of a lot of our folks. I have no empirical evidence, and I don't think the department does either. I think it should be the subject of a good longitudinal study on that whole issue.

We feel, just from talking to people, that yes, women are not necessarily as inclined to want to, at the age of 19, get out of the house to go to Petawawa or some distant place. There are a lot who are more comfortable.... But they want to be in uniform, so this is a way to do that if you can do it on a part-time basis. I also believe that within the ethnic communities, which we do have females from, there could be pressures to stay a little closer to home. They don't want them to go away.

I think those two things are probably the biggest factors. This is all, as I say, anecdotal.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

What percentage of our reserve units are combat arms?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

Percentage-wise, I don't know. Here's what I can tell you. I can give you the absolute numbers, because I've never worked it out for percentages. Within the army reserve, we have 117 units: 51 are infantry; 17 are armoured, and I think it's about 17 or 18 that are artillery. Those are the combat arms. Then we have engineers, and I think we have about nine of those. Signals are at least another nine, probably more. Those two are supporting arms. Then in the combat service support, we have nine service battalions. In addition to that, there are a lot of army folks who are in medical, legal and other parts.

I'm sorry, but the bulk is—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'm just wondering, because well over half are combat arms—

[LCol (Ret'd) John Selkirk]

Oh, it's more than half.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We've heard some witnesses here say that is an impediment to some women getting involved. A lot of women want to pursue that career path and others don't. Especially, how many are rifle companies, for example?