Evidence of meeting #89 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Yes, that clarifies it. I appreciate that.
When we were asking about the data compiled, you said unstructured files, databases and “things like that” were compromised. That's extremely vague. Can you be more specific on that, please?
6:15 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
The databases I was referring to are the databases in which we store our operating data. They were not compromised, to be very clear. Those databases that had our structured data relating to our customers and clients were not compromised.
The data that was compromised was spreadsheets and what we and the experts refer to as “unstructured data” that was in shared drives and things like that. The difference is that the actual databases in which we have all the data we work with day to day in our systems were not compromised.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Okay.
After that major cyber breach was experienced, the federal government announced it would be offering services for all current or former members of the public service, the RCMP, the Canadian Armed Forces and their families who relocated with your service. It's put that back under the public service, as I understand it.
Just so I'm clear on it, who is currently providing those services for relocation? Is it your organization or is it the public service?
6:15 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
I'm not sure I understand the question.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
The relocation services that you provide were shifted, as I understand it, because of that data breach—certainly within the RCMP—but who is currently providing those services? Is it both? Is it a combination? Is it your company, or is it the public service?
6:15 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
In terms of the RCMP, there's been no change to our contract and our relationship with them since the data breach. Prior to, during and now, we have a limited scope with them whereby we provide a service directory of suppliers.
For the other contracts, with the CAF and the Treasury Board, we have provided full move consulting and we continue to do that. There's been no change in the services we provide.
The contract we have with PSPC is to move household goods and autos. That is a separate contract, which we continue to be part of.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
From what you're saying, there is no doubling up of service.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Okay.
One of the major concerns that we heard about the relocation program was the fact that there's a gap for military spouses after separation. Separations are a really tough time, of course, for anyone going through them, but it's unique when a military spouse has to move away. They're already away from their support systems and may have to move back if there's a delay or a gap in that move or that relocation. That causes additional stress and problems.
Do you have any information that you can share with us about conversations you've had with the Department of National Defence about expanding final move funding or relocation services when things like this happen within human activities?
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
I am not aware of conversations that we've been involved in about changing any policies.
We provide funding advances, as I said, to folks who are in the move process so that there are no out-of-pocket expenses. If someone comes back to us with additional services that are part of the policy and that they need additional funds for, we would give them an additional advance.
At the end of the move, after we've collected all of the receipts from all of the customers, we would reconcile the actual supported amounts with the advances.
6:20 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
When Brigadier-General Tattersall was at this committee, I asked her about the RCMP having brought a lot of the services out of your company and back into the public service.
You're currently renegotiating your contract. Can you talk about which elements are potentially being brought back in-house, and then what your bid is currently or what the contract is being offered for?
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
The contract with the RCMP has been for us to maintain a service directory of local suppliers around Canada and to negotiate, by province, the rates that they can charge. As far as I am aware, that has been consistently in place, and it is exactly what we are bidding on moving forward.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.
We're now into the five-minute round, with Mr. Kelly.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you.
Will you table the email that you sent to the CAF on October 4?
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
I would have to get back to the committee with that, but I could do that.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay. Thank you.
You explained that “unstructured data” means a number of different ways that information can be organized in a variety of shared places. Do you even know what data could potentially be contained in this unstructured data?
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
At this point, we are in the middle of going through and reviewing what is in all of those files that were copied—
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay. Thank you.
This is a large undertaking, then, to even know what we're talking about. Is that why you haven't—
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
Yes, we have a lot of experts who—
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay.
Part of the reason why I think it's important that we have that email is that the November 17 statement from the Treasury Board says that they were notified on October 19. We know that's incorrect. We know that Mrs. Gallant informed the minister on October 6. The minister didn't seem to know. You've told the committee now that they were notified through a phone call on October 3 and an email on October 4, so I think we need to know. As parliamentarians, we have a responsibility to get to the bottom of what the government's response was for something this serious.
Was ransom paid?
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
No. Ransom was not paid.
6:20 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
Let me be clear about the communication.
The communication that was verbal on October 3 and October 4 related to our system being encrypted and not available. October 19 was when the data was released on the dark web. Then we communicated about the data after that event happened, so on October 19. There were two different communications that related to the two different issues. From September 29 until October 19, no data had been released, and we were working to keep that data confidential at that point in time.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
How do you know that no data was released before October 19 or that no data was taken before October 19?
6:25 p.m.
President, Global Relocation, Sirva Worldwide, Inc.
We know that on September 29 the systems were shut down. We knew at that point that there was data that was partially copied. We shut the door on the bad actors in the middle of that. On October 3, we did that verbal communication about the system being locked down. On October 4, we communicated.
We monitored the dark web. Until October 19, we continued our conversations with the bad actors to try to keep that data confidential. There could have been some data that we were not aware of that could have been released.