National Defence Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I see it's 11 o'clock, and I see quorum.

We've done all our sound checks and, in this particular instance, the weather check, which is part of the sound check. It is extremely relevant, as Mr. Fillmore is in Halifax digging out as we speak, so we'll probably see him around May.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We are continuing our study on housing. We are fortunate to have Mr. Lick with us, who is the ombudsman for the military. We appreciate his regular appearances here.

I take note, sir, that not only are you appearing today, but you may appear for one of our other studies on the 12th as well. I hope you don't shoot everything you have today and have nothing left to say.

I understand you have made heroic sacrifices to be here. I'm hoping members will take note that he is under the weather and will not grill him to a piece.

Mr. Lick, you know the procedure. We look forward to what you have to say for the first five minutes.

[Gregory A. Lick]

In comparison to my military members, it is not a heroic sacrifice by any means.

Good morning, committee members. I am joined by my director general of operations, Ms. Robyn Hynes.

During my time as ombudsman, I've completed 15 full-week visits to bases and wings, listening to members and families. Access to health care, child care, spousal employment and, more recently, the cost of living and housing were recurring themes during these visits.

I've heard from a member's dependent, who shared with me they had been homeless for five months. I've heard from families using food banks. I've also heard from some who are one paycheque away from not paying their rent or needing to make a hard decision between food and rent.

This situation isn't unique to military families. However, military families move three to four times more often than the average Canadian. Generally, this isn't by choice. Families have a limited window to complete the move and resettle. This means that they must quickly find housing in a new community that they may be unfamiliar with.

What's the result? Families are sometimes pushed into either unsafe or unaffordable housing.

While members do not expect a lot from their barracks, I was shocked to see some deteriorating single quarters on base that are not acceptable for any human in any situation. This was not my experience in the eighties.

A formal wellness check by CAF leadership is the right thing to do, but may not uncover every situation. This committee must uncover what is behind the disparity. Are military families living in tent cities? Perhaps not. Are there military members and their families who are at significant risk of being homeless due to financial insecurity? Yes. Are there charitable organizations across the country helping to keep some of these members and their families off the streets? Yes.

When CAF members cannot secure military housing, there is a significant impact on their lives, as they must then live on the economy. This is not ideal when there is a lack of local, suitable and affordable accommodations in many areas in Canada. Military families may not be protected from rate hike limitations for existing tenants. At greatest risk are lower-ranked members and families with special needs or disabilities when they cannot secure affordable accommodations.

In January 2024, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency provided their annual updated statistics on military housing waitlists. For 2022 and 2023, we saw a continued increase in most areas. Today, we can see a 177% increase in Bagotville and a 261% increase in Edmonton.

Let's look at it another way. In Esquimalt, Halifax and Trenton, there are almost as many members and their families on the wait-list as there are total units. Here's another example. Some posted military families in Alberta lost up to $100,000 due to housing market fluctuations related to oil patch financial ups and downs. This is unconscionable.

It would be unrealistic to see the government provide military housing for every member and family. Families should be able to choose their housing throughout their career, whether on base or in the local community.

An agile global strategy would help meet the needs of military members and could be adapted to the changing economic environments around the country.

All options need to be explored and properly resourced. The reality of military life often means that temporary spousal unemployment becomes permanent. Often, a spouse must take a break from paid work to settle their family in a new community. This unemployment and/or potential underemployment exacerbates the financial uncertainties for families and their ability to afford suitable housing.

Within the past year, I've noticed a real change in military families. We see more frustration and desperation. These family issues are the main reason that military members are leaving the Canadian Armed Forces.

No CAF members, nor their families, should ever have to worry about putting a roof over their heads or to wonder where their next meal is going to come from. This is a basic need that should not become their daily reality and impede CAF members' ability to keep Canadians safe.

Thank you. Robyn and I would be pleased to answer any of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Lick.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Before you start my time, Mr. Chair, I would like to give verbal notice of two motions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The time is running, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

This is the first:

Given that the Minister of National Defence is increasing rent for Canadian military personnel this April, and at a time when the military is struggling to recruit and retain personnel, the committee report to the House that the government immediately cancel all plans to increase rent on military accommodations used by the Department of National Defence this April.

The second motion I wish to give notice of is as follows:

That, given the Ukrainian Armed Forces are in desperate need of more munitions, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine have officially requested Canada donate surplus CRV7 rockets to Ukraine to aid them in defending their sovereign territory from Russia's illegal invasion, and given the Canadian Armed Forces are in possession of 83,000 CRV7 rockets that are slated for decommissioning and will cost taxpayers' money to dispose of, the Committee report to the House that the Government of Canada immediately donate all surplus CRV7 rockets to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have five minutes left.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the ombudsman for joining us today and for his insight on the housing crisis we have.

I appreciate the statistics you've given. You mentioned in your opening statement that there is more frustration and desperation now. Is that from written comments you're receiving? Is this coming from members when you're travelling across the country and meeting with them?

[Gregory A. Lick]

Primarily, it's coming from the meetings with different members and families as we visit different bases and wings across the country. I'm hearing it a lot more, and when I bring up the issue and ask, “Do you know someone who is at risk of being homeless or at risk of accessing a food bank?”, everybody nods. Everybody knows somebody.

We know that charitable organizations are providing money to families, sometimes through the chaplaincy, for them to afford rent and food. I've been hearing it a lot more over the last year and a half, yes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If you're hearing about people living rough who are putting themselves into precarious situations to access housing, are couch surfing or are going to food banks.... We saw the reports coming out of Nova Scotia in December from the hearings held at the Nova Scotia Legislature by a special committee they had.

The Canadian Armed Forces said they did a wellness check and those comments were categorically false. The minister repeated that in question period on Thursday. However, you're hearing that members are in dire straights and are frustrated and desperate. You would disagree with the CAF's report that everybody is fine.

[Gregory A. Lick]

Certainly, as I said, a wellness check is the right thing to do. It's something I would have done as well if I were in that position, but you have to think: If you were homeless, would you have the confidence and comfort level to come forward with an embarrassing situation and tell people and tell your boss that you're homeless or that you have to access a food bank?

I think they trust us because we are a confidential service, but I think that while it was the right thing to do, the CAF is not going to find every situation. I think they have to recognize that it's not just me saying it. Charitable organizations are providing money. Chaplaincy is accessing these funds for different members and families. It's there.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You're saying that the Canadian Armed Forces should not have just offhandedly dismissed the allegations or the comments that were made through testimony at a committee in front of the Nova Scotia Legislature.

[Gregory A. Lick]

I think they did the right thing, but they have to recognize that they're not going to get all of the information just by asking people.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Then the characterization by the minister in saying that their reports are false would be misleading at best.

[Gregory A. Lick]

I think so, absolutely.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

You talked about the wait-lists and how many people are waiting for residential housing units. You have experience as well with barracks from when you were a younger man. How do you visualize the status and condition of living accommodations and residential housing units now, whether it's barracks, PMQs or elsewhere, compared to when you were there 20 or 30 years ago?

[Gregory A. Lick]

Certainly, the RHUs—the residential housing units—on base are getting some updates, but more capacity and availability are needed. That's kind of the basic premise. Also, in a number of pictures of the barracks that were sent to us by military members, what I saw was absolutely horrid. This was not my experience. Yes, we weren't living in five-star accommodations 30 years ago, nor would we have expected to. At the same time, these pictures I saw were absolutely horrid.

We do hear from a number of military members—single members, traditionally—that the barracks and “shacks”, as they call them, across the country are not in the best condition. Absolutely, more resourcing and more investment are needed there to bring them up to proper living standards.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There have been comments—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Am I done?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes.

Mr. Collins, you have six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our guests today.

Sir, in your opening, you talked about members living paycheque to paycheque. You talked about the affordability issues they face.

When we start looking at the challenges of affordability, we see that many people at the municipal and provincial levels have talked about a universal basic income. They start to address not the expense side of the equation but the supports and the revenue side in terms of an individual's ability to pay for rising rents in this instance.

When we deal with the CAF, that would point to compensation. That would deal with how much the government is providing its members to pay for rising rents and address the affordability issues they, like all other Canadians, face when they go to the grocery store.

In December, we had a vote in the House of Commons to increase the pay for our members to try to assist with the affordability issues that you've raised today. It wasn't unanimous.

How important is it to ensure that our members receive the appropriate level of compensation to ensure they have the ability to pay for rising rents, the increased costs that they'll face when they go to the grocery store with their families and other expenditures that we're witnessing today in the Canadian economy?

[Gregory A. Lick]

The simple answer is that, yes, they deserve the proper compensation so they can live and live appropriately.

There are a number of initiatives the CAF and the government itself have put in place to allow members to better afford.... They corrected the huge inequity and unfairness with the PLD, the post-living differential. It was a great idea at the time, in 2008, but if you don't update the rates based on the economic environment across the country as it changes.... In 2009, it became unfair, and it was completely unfair all the way along. At least the Canadian Forces housing differential now is focused and is supposed to be updated every year. That will go a long way, I think, in helping with this particular issue.

However, we come back to two things: supply and demand. Right now, there is insufficient supply out there, both on base and in the local community. Compensation does allow for the different benefit packages that mitigate some of these issues, but right now, without the supply there, costs are likely rising far beyond what the compensation can afford. We're seeing that when members access food banks and are maybe one paycheque away from paying the rent.