National Defence Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Gregory A. Lick]

That's correct.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

In fact, you said that everybody knows somebody within the CAF who is struggling with homelessness or access to food.

[Gregory A. Lick]

It may not be today. It may have been yesterday. It may be tomorrow that they're one paycheque away.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Indeed.

In response to my Order Paper question, Madam Lalonde confirmed that for the last several years, more members are leaving the forces than joining the forces. There is a crisis of recruitment and retention that's resulted in 16,000 vacancies and 10,000 undertrained personnel.

Where does housing fit into this, and access to housing?

[Gregory A. Lick]

As I stated earlier, the largest reason that people are leaving is military family issues. Over the last year and half, I've been hearing from various members and families on bases that the cost of housing and the cost of living are becoming more important. Access to a doctor, access to child care and access to spousal and partner employment still remain issues, but the cost of living and the cost of housing are becoming more important, as they are for all Canadians. We must remember that. It's not simply military families.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Indeed, but they're choosing to leave the military for these reasons.

[Gregory A. Lick]

That's correct.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Mr. Fillmore seemed to go to some lengths to point out that the difference in responsibility between the Minister of Defence and Treasury Board Secretariat has resulted in increasing the rent for what you've described, I think, three times as, in some cases, “horrid” base housing.

Have you met any CAF member who cares which Liberal minister is raising their rent?

[Gregory A. Lick]

I'm not sure how I would answer that per se, but I will come back to the point. I think given the economic environment out there and given the issues of military members leaving because of the cost of living, cost of housing and family issues, raising the rent, in my personal opinion, is not the right thing to do at this point in time.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Right. It's not the right thing. I would say that the Treasury Board versus the Minister of Defence is a distinction without a difference to a CAF member having their rent raised.

[Gregory A. Lick]

Yes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a minute and 30 seconds.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's fantastic.

Perhaps we can come back to this. Three times you described the conditions of some housing as absolutely horrid. Could you give us some examples of what would render a living unit horrid?

[Gregory A. Lick]

When I talk about the living units and the pictures I've been shown by military members, these are the barracks or shacks. They're not the residential housing units that I've seen. Those are different. They are two different things.

Certainly, these pictures were horrid. They were of toilets not working, toilets overflowing, mould on walls and ceilings, heating not working—all sorts of issues that you would not expect in a facility that houses the people who save our lives and defend our security. For me, it was shocking given my experience. My experience is still 30 years old, but that's no excuse.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 20 seconds, MP Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

What about the residential housing units, then? Are they much better?

[Gregory A. Lick]

This would be a good question for the CFHA as well. I would say that, overall, they're not in bad condition. The residential housing units are better than what I remember, to be honest. We generally see the newer ones as they're getting updated—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

They're building 20 a year, though, I understand.

[Gregory A. Lick]

Yes. They're not building. As I said, I think there are more needed.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

There's a backlog of 8,000.

[Gregory A. Lick]

There are more needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll have to leave it there. Again, thank you.

The final round of questioning is for Madame Lambropoulos. You have five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lick and Ms. Hynes, for being with us to answer some of our questions today.

The first question I'll ask is about somebody in an extremely desperate situation. You mentioned that a family member of a military member said they had been homeless for five months. If there are situations like this and someone reaches out, is there a way—a temporary fix or a temporary solution—for these people in a really desperate situation—for example, in Halifax right now they are experiencing a bad storm—to be helped temporarily by someone from the military?

[Gregory A. Lick]

There are all sorts of ways this particular issue of not having a home and not having a place to sleep could be mitigated. As I talked about, there's couch surfing, RVs and various things. However, for the more, we'll say, tragic situations of domestic violence and things like that, which do tragically occur, many bases and wings have one or two different residential housing units where they can accommodate the family short term until they're able to resolve that issue.

I would say I'm very proud of the CAF leadership on bases and wings. If anybody came forward with an issue like that, they would take care of them. They would find a solution. I'm very proud of the CAF leadership in that way, but again, it all comes down to a resource issue. How do they get the resources sometimes to deal with everybody?

There is also a personal responsibility in this. We all know of people who may not have the financial literacy to properly manage a budget, a household and so on. There are issues like that too.