National Defence Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[June Winger]

What's happening with our fitness trainers in the military is just outrageous. They're earning 62% less than the schedule I fitness trainers. It's just bizarre. The issue that causes them with morale is very difficult for them. It's hard for them to keep up their morale and feel good about it.

I could also draw on Jennifer's example of the Calian staff. We have Calian staff who are doing work that my members perform. They've been doing it for so long that they're paid far more than what the public servants are, and they're working side by side. It becomes a massive challenge for these people. As the department tries to get rid of the contract, they can't attract staff because they're so far behind market value.

These people have been at National Defence for 20 to 30 years now. They're seen as employees. They come to the public service appreciation week barbecues. They come to the events. In fact, they come to some of the sporting events on bases that public servants have to put in leave for. The contractors are in there instead.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I know that Department of National Defence employees worked on the issue of work contracted out, in the kitchens, for example. It is an issue at the Saint-Jean base. Early on, we were told that work had to be contracted out in order to meet the needs in peak periods. We were told that the private sector was more flexible.

After several years and a number of studies, however, we can see that there aren't really any peak periods and that these positions could be filled by public servants.

Has the employer done an analysis of the consistency of needs?

Moreover, what does the employer say when they're presented with the numbers that you have that show that these positions could be filled by public servants, if only to avoid having two categories of employees, which can cause jealousy?

[June Winger]

We know 100% that all of the work done in kitchens could be done by public servants. In fact, on many bases, it is. There is some poor management and poor planning that is preventing that from happening. Then they're reliant on groups. DCC was recently trying to contract in kitchen workers onto bases. They've just spread right out.

That work is predictable. Anybody can figure out what it's going to be. There's no reason there would ever be an unpredictable surge at a kitchen. That work could and should definitely be done by public servants.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have a quick question.

Ms. Kramp-Neuman raised the issue of sole-sourced contracts.

I'd like to know if you know what percentage of the contracts issued were sole-sourced, and the reasons sole-sourced contracts are issued. Were you given any reasons?

In your opinion, is national security too often invoked to justify issuing sole-sourced contracts?

[Jennifer Carr]

It's very interesting, because I would think that the opposite would be true. I think that, because of National Defence security, you would want to have as much in-house as possible and that you would rely on public service professionals to provide those jobs.

Once it's out in the contractor space, we can't control it. They are not bound by values and ethics. They are not bound by internal financial administration rules. There are all of these areas where a public servant can be more reliable for national security.

In fact, their reliance on contractors and the over-reliance mean that we're losing the institutional knowledge and skills to do it ourselves. Therefore, they say, “Oh, we can't do it.” You certainly can do it. It just takes will. It takes people listening to my consultation team president as they sit at the table day after day saying that this job could be done by the public service.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you for being here today.

Ms. Carr, can you table with the committee the “Programmed to Fail” report, “Part one: The real cost of outsourcing” and “Part two: Outsourcing and gender equity”.

Do you have any other reports or summaries that you feel would be helpful to this study?

[Jennifer Carr]

For those on the committee, like I said, the Professional Institute has been looking at outsourcing for a long time, for over a decade. I will be honoured to present those reports. I don't have any others.

We will be looking at doing a concentrated survey with the Department of National Defence at some time in the future.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ms. Winger, can you table the “Uncover the Costs” report with the committee? Do you have other reports that would be helpful for this study?

[June Winger]

I can certainly table the “Uncover the Costs” report. I think we can put something else together to make sure it's updated. Our contracting out committee report is from 2020, so we have some updates we can add.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Out of curiosity, are both reports bilingual?

[June Winger]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, great. Thank you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's the public service—of course.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

One does not assume.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ms. Winger, I know you didn't get a chance to talk much in your introduction, as the chair likes to cut people off, but could you talk to us more about the Logistik Unicorp contract and the experience DND has had with this corporation?

[June Winger]

Sure. We've had a few challenges with Logistik. They have recently taken on a massive contract with National Defence. It's $3.7 billion over the next 20 years, and it will result in the elimination of 177 military clothing stores. They will be going from 240 down to 63, which is significant. It's unclear how DND is going to ensure that the contractor will be providing the services that it's supposed to provide, and we're already seeing problems with it. We're concerned about runaway costs already at this early stage. There have already been issues with the previous contract that National Defence has with Logistik; and yet, despite this, they were awarded this 20-year contract, which gives them a substantial foothold without much motivation to increase their service, or at least meet the actual terms of the contract.

I just had a meeting with members last weekend, and I recently learned about an issue with Logistik which took five months for them to fix, and it resulted in the recall of 300 pairs of pants just due to a labelling issue. While the military store tried to get it corrected, they couldn't. They kept bringing it up over and over until finally it had to go to Ottawa just to get this corrected with repeated interventions from management in Ottawa in order to force the company to fix its own error.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Was there any indication of what the cost of that would be?

[June Winger]

The costs are nearly impossible to track. The department is not upfront with the costs, and whenever we try to trace those, we don't get any feedback on it.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That's linked to the ADM checking and balancing and tracking of that.

[June Winger]

Absolutely.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

There was also an issue I heard about with Toure Cleaning Services. Could you talk about that contract, please?

[June Winger]

This is a bit of a heartbreak. If you recall, in Petawawa a few years ago the GDI cleaners were on strike for four months. Finally, they got a contract, and then when the contract was reviewed again, GDI was not the winning bidder.

What ended up happening was they brought in three contracts, and a company named Toure got two of them. Everything was going pretty well. There were two five-year contracts for nearly $8.5 million. However, around January of last year, the employer stopped paying their employees on time and properly. Their collective agreement specified it would be by electronic fund transfers, but they were getting cheques—they were getting paid to another employee, and then deposited into their account. It was just bonkers. The employees weren't able to get cleaning equipment—their cleaning supplies were getting drowned out from the providers, who weren't extending the credit anymore. They couldn't even use the company vehicles, which were stuck in garages that the company wasn't paying their bill for, so they ended up renting vehicles. It was a nightmare.

It came to a head around Christmastime. They simply stopped paying the employees. I had a member call me up telling me she was a grandmother and had intended to have the family over for Christmas, but couldn't afford groceries.