Evidence of meeting #15 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Johanne Gélinas  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Arseneault  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Neil Maxwell  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
David McBain  Director, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we can begin.

Welcome.

Madam Gélinas and your colleagues, welcome.

This is meeting number 15 of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the 2006 report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

Witnesses before the committee today are from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Madam Johanne Gélinas, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development; Mr. Neil Maxwell, principal; Mr. Richard Arseneault, principal; David McBain, director in the division; and Kim Leach, director in the division.

We welcome all of you.

Pursuant now to Mr. Cullen, who has distributed a notice of motion, members, before we go on, Mr. Cullen has indicated he will do this very briefly. Do I have consensus with the committee, before we have Ms. Gélinas, to allow Mr. Cullen to briefly introduce his notice of motion?

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Okay.

Mr. Cullen, very briefly, please.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to say that I am giving notice of two motions, one having to do with the EnerGuide program and one having to do with the wind power production incentive programs. I'm tabling them today but giving notice of these motions so that we can hopefully discuss when we come back after the recess.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Members of the committee are aware that Mr. Richardson, the chair, is not able to be here today, so I will endeavour to do my best, with the support of the clerk and the assistance of all of the members of the committee, to deal expeditiously with the agenda.

Having said that, Ms. Gélinas, you have the floor, and we look forward to your opening statement.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Johanne Gélinas Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Members of Parliament, I'm pleased to present to you this afternoon my sixth report as Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

This report deals mostly with the federal government's approach to climate change covering up to mid-June 2006.

In the course of our audit work, we have tried to answer three basic questions: Is Canada on track to meet its emission reduction obligations? Is Canada ready to adapt to the impact of climate change? Is the government organized and managing well?

The answer is no to all three questions.

It has become more and more obvious that Canada cannot meet its Kyoto Protocol commitments to reduce greenhouse gases. In fact, instead of decreasing, greenhouse gas emissions in Canada have increased by 27% since 1990.

Let me walk you through each of the five chapters of my report.

Chapter 1 addresses how the federal government is organized to manage its climate change activities, whether it is able to report the costs and the results of its efforts, and on what basis it developed key targets for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

It also addresses new tools the government has chosen to help achieve its climate change objectives--a domestic system of trading greenhouse gas emissions, and Sustainable Development Technology Canada, a foundation set up to help reduce greenhouse gas through technological innovation.

Government action has not been well organized or well managed. The government has not defined its leadership role, nor has it identified the responsibilities of each department. It has been unable to come up with the basic tools it needs to measure its progress. Even though more than $6 billion of funding has been announced since 1997, the government still has no system to track the spending and results of its climate change activities. In other words, the government has no way to report returns on its investment.

Another major problem with the government's approach is its failure to address the biggest greenhouse gas emitters--transportation and heavy industry, which together represent the lion's share of all emissions in Canada.

In the transportation sector, which produces 25% of all gas emissions, the only well-defined measure in place is a voluntary agreement with the car industry to reduce emissions by 5.3 million tonnes by 2010, which is only 2% of the overall reduction needed to meet Kyoto's commitment. In addition, we found the agreement falls short in a few key areas for voluntary agreements--mainly, the lack of a third-party independent verification of the model, data, and results that will be used to determine progress.

As for the industry sector, which is responsible for 53% of all emissions, the government has steadily, since 2002, lowered greenhouse gas reduction targets. The reduction now expected from that sector could be only 30 million tonnes, of a total of the expected 270 million tonnes of reductions needed to meet Kyoto's commitments.

In other words, according to the data we collected during this year's audit, the two sectors responsible for 78% of all Canada's emissions could contribute only around 20% of the expected emission reductions. Even if the proposed measures are implemented, they will only, at best, slow down the growth in greenhouse gas emissions, not reduce them.

The two principal tools for reducing emissions--the system of large final emitters and the national emissions trading system--are still under construction, after more than four years.

Chapter 2 deals with adaptation. Unfortunately, we found that adaptation is where the efforts of the government were especially disappointing. Despite commitments to take action going back to 1992, there is no federal strategy to specify how the effects of a change in climate would be managed.

The failure to make significant progress on adaptation efforts risks Canadian social and economic well-being.

Chapter 3 looks at three Natural Resources Canada programs that each received $100 million or more to reduce greenhouse gases emitted during energy production and consumption: the wind power production incentive for renewable energy, better known by the acronym WPPI; the EnerGuide for existing buildings for energy efficiency, abolished in May 2006; and the ethanol expansion program for renewable fuels. We found that while these programs yielded results, it was difficult to assess whether they reduced emissions as planned because their targets were unclear. There was also limited reporting of the results these programs achieved with the money spent. We expected Natural Resources Canada to tell Canadians how successful the programs were at reducing greenhouse gases, but with unclear targets and inconsistent public reporting, we wonder how parliamentarians could assess whether these programs are working.

Chapter 3 also looked at the federal efforts to tackle emissions produced by the oil and gas industry. We found that in its battle with climate change the federal government has not taken into account the unprecedented boom in that sector. Emissions resulting from the increased exploitation of oil sands could double by 2015, cancelling any other efforts to reduce greenhouse gases.

Chapter 4 concerns sustainable development strategies. Our findings this year represent good news, to a degree. In three quarters of the cases we examined, departments are making satisfactory progress on their strategy commitments.

Chapter 5 contains two parts: the annual report on petitions, and the results of an audit we conducted on a commitment made by Natural Resources Canada, Environment Canada, and Public Works to purchase 20% of their power from green sources by 2006.

It is interesting to note that increasingly Canadians are raising the issues of climate change and air quality in environmental petitions. Canadians are informed and concerned about climate change.

Most responses addressed questions raised. Some did not. An example of a response that did not address the questions posed is that of Finance Canada to petition 158, concerning subsidies to the oil and gas industry and federal efforts to address climate change. Your committee may wish to get Finance Canada to clearly explain the extent to which the sector is subsidized.

We found that the government has not been able to deliver on its commitment to buy 20% of its power from green sources by 2006, as it stated it would do in a response to a petition in 2002. As a result, it has not met its expected contribution to greenhouse gas emissions reductions in Canada.

At the end of our audit, my conclusion is this: the federal government has done too little and acted too slowly on Canada's commitments to address the challenge of climate change. Looking forward, a massive scale-up of effort is needed.

I have identified five areas that I believe are crucial: provide sustained leadership; integrate energy and climate change; develop a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions; push ahead with adaptation; and, assure governance and accountability.

Each area is important, but the call for leadership by the federal government applies to them all.

I believe that there is an important opportunity for parliamentarians to pursue the concerns I have raised in my report. Clearly, there are many issues that government officials need to explain, among them: what progress is being made in developing a robust system for collecting and reporting information on expenditures and results? What was learned during the Treasury Board-led review of climate change programs and, how is it being shared and used?

The federal government has accepted all of my recommendations. Therefore, I expect the government's new plan to spell out clearly how these recommendations will be taken into account.

So, when the new climate change plan is available, parliamentarians will be able to see how the government has responded to the specific recommendations made in my report, and the five areas I identified as crucial to future progress.

Mr. Chair, that completes my opening statement. I and my colleagues will be happy to respond to your questions now. Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you, Madame Gélinas.

We will now commence our schedule of questioning. I think you're familiar with that. In this committee there is five minutes for questioning. I would ask members of the committee to address their questions through the chair, as is appropriate. Thank you very much.

Mr. Cullen, go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you very much, Madame Gélinas, and thank you to your colleagues for coming here today.

It is a pretty damning report, I think.

The Liberal government was in power for most of the period that you covered. You did some review of what was happening or not happening in 2006, but it is fair to say that most of your review covered the period when the previous government was in power. Is that right?

3:40 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

We started to look at this issue back in 1997, really. So we cover approximately ten years.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Okay. Then as far as the current government is concerned, I guess there is a phasing-in period in which they have to make an assessment. At some point they need to respond and come up with a plan. So we are all waiting with bated breath for their made-in-Canada solution.

It is interesting that they have accepted your recommendations, so the challenge now is to see how they respond to those.

I'm not very happy with our performance as a country either. However, the information in front of me says that in the last two years of our mandate as a government, we started to see some progress in terms of greenhouse gas reductions. In the first few years we were getting started, and frankly I think we had a not terribly focused effort.

Does your information also show that toward the latter part of our mandate we started to make some impact on the reduction in greenhouse gases?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

If we look at the three programs I mentioned previously, it is true that we were able to see some progress made. But those three programs, which were the most important ones, would at the most achieve one megatonne of reduction, and they were designed to achieve five megatonnes. This is really one of the few areas where we can talk about progress, because the emissions trading system, the LFE system, and developing a strategy for adaptation were not really up and running.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

I'd like to move to your finding that there's no sort of consolidated monitoring and reporting on spending and performance. We're talking here about maybe $6 billion. You talked about the lack of a cohesive governance structure.

To what extent is the lack of monitoring and reporting related to governance? Is it just sloppy bookkeeping or performance management records? What is needed to have a proper accountability structure so there are accountable measures reporting against performance and monitoring of what kind of value is being achieved for the dollars being spent?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

There are a couple of points on that. First of all, at the program level the departments--especially NRCan in this case--were able to provide some good information, even if it took a while to gather it. The information was there but it was not readily accessible. Climate change is really a horizontal issue where many departments are involved. We found that every department, and sometimes every program, had a different way of collecting and wrapping up information. So if someone wanted to get an overview of progress made in terms of results and spending, it was a challenge and it's still a challenge.

You talked about the $6.3 billion. That was money announced by the previous government up to the budget of 2005. So these types of numbers are easy to gather; we just go back to the previous budgets. When it came time to get the information on how much money was spent, it was really because of a question that was asked a couple of months ago by the committee on environment and sustainable development. We were able to access that information because the Treasury Board was gathering it in response to the committee. Otherwise we would have had a lot of problems gathering it. The reason is that there's no consolidated system within the federal government to gather information and give accurate and updated information in a short period of time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you, Ms. Gélinas.

Madame DeBellefeuille.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Thank you very much, Ms. Gélinas, for your presentation.

I would just like to note, for my colleagues' information, that you are a Commissioner and your job is to assess the twenty-five departments required to present sustainable development strategies. It's important to clarify your role.

My questions have to do with the EnerGuide program. As the new Bloc Québécois critic on issues related to natural resources, I would like to try and understand why the Minister terminated this program.

I read in your report that, for existing homes, the EnerGuide program had resulted in a 27% reduction in average energy consumption and that the Department can prove that the program led to a 0.7 megaton reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

My reading of the situation is that there was some effect, possibly minor, but nevertheless a positive effect. I would like the benefit of your expertise to try and understand why the program was eliminated.

When inspectors or evaluators would go to someone's house to do an assessment and advise people about the renovations needed to increase energy efficiency, do you think these assessments were important in terms of enabling the government to measure and collect the data, in order to determine whether this program was playing a part in reducing greenhouse emissions by enhancing energy efficiency?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

In fact, the EnerGuide program was designed specifically to allow Canadians to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. So, it was designed by officials with Natural Resources Canada, and it is possible to measure the outcomes. Indeed, when we went to see how the program was managed and implemented, we ourselves were able to obtain that information.

So, this was not a program that was poorly managed--far from it. At the same time, we did identify certain weaknesses: because the targets had evolved, they weren't always clear, and the way the Department was reporting results was clearly not adequate.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

We asked a number of questions in the House, to try and understand the reasons why the program was being terminated, and I believe we were told that the assessment prior to renovations and the one after completion of the renovations were considered to be of a purely administrative nature. We were also told that because this was an administrative type of program, it was not considered to be a good investment for taxpayers.

I would be interested in hearing your views on that. Do you believe that the pre-assessment and final assessment are purely administrative in nature or are they in fact interventions under the program aimed at measuring its ability to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

It may sound like we're playing with words here, Mr. Chairman, but it is clear that the first phase of the program does consist of an assessment of the home's energy efficiency. And it is based on the results of that assessment that homeowners implement a program of renovations aimed at improving energy efficiency.

The data from the Department of Natural Resources are clear: on average, program participants improved their home's energy efficiency, as you stated, by 27%.

But depending on the way you interpret the numbers, it could be considered an administrative cost. However, in this particular case, it was an expenditure related to the program itself.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

And collecting that data enabled the government to determine whether there was greater energy efficiency and, thus, whether greenhouse gas emissions were being reduced.

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

Yes, that's exactly what the program does.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

You have one minute left.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Can you tell me whether you have evaluated or verified, based on government R&D budgets, the percentage allocated to Natural Resources, and in what specific areas research and development budgets have been allocated?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

We have some information about research and development. But we would have to review the information and try and collate it, in order to answer your question. At the same time, I don't think we could give you a comprehensive answer, although we could probably provide some indications, if you are willing to give us an opportunity to address that a little later.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

I'm sure my colleagues would agree.