Evidence of meeting #2 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chairman.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Fadden  Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Frank Des Rosiers  Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Howard Brown  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Carol Buckley  Director General, Special Projects, Energy, Technology and Programs Sector, Department of Natural Resources

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

With the witnesses present, let us be under way.

The plan today is to hear from the Department of Natural Resources Canada for initial comments for perhaps half an hour, then go to questions. If you could keep your questions until after the initial presentation, there will probably be a bit longer to answer any concerns you might have.

We were thinking of going to about 12:30 p.m. with the witnesses, excuse them, then go in camera to discuss agenda items.

There is also a request from a hybrid vehicle company to the environment committee and this committee to do a test drive around Parliament Hill. I told them we needed more notice, but they happen to be in town for an environmental conference. So I will leave it to the members, if they're able to pull it off. We're working now at getting them on the Hill, or not. I'm thinking about a quarter to one. If people want to go downstairs and get a ride up to the Centre Block or somewhere, they can show you this vehicle for 15 minutes. But we'll know more about that as the meeting progresses. I wanted to say this may be something...and to make it available at your discretion, because of the short notice.

Let me first introduce Dick Fadden, the Deputy Minister of Natural Resources Canada, Howard Brown, and Frank Des Rosiers.

Perhaps I could turn it over now to you, Dick. You may introduce yourself and your colleagues a little more, and proceed with your presentation.

11:05 a.m.

Richard Fadden Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to identify in more detail my colleagues, Howard Brown is assistant deputy minister of energy policy, energy being quite a significant part of the department's work; and Frank Des Rosiers is director general of strategic policy.

As the chair said, what I'd like to do is take you through a relatively short deck, which tries to explain what NRCan does, what its mandate is, how we mesh with the provinces, and also give you a bit of a sense of the important issues we're working on over the course of the next weeks, months, and years.

I believe you have the deck in front of you. I won't repeat the statistics on page 3, except to say something you already probably know, and that is the financial importance of the natural resources sector is significant. It's 13% of GDP, and it contributes some $93 billion to Canada's trade surplus.

I'd like to leave you with two thoughts about the natural resources sector. One is that despite popular myths, this sector is a highly technical and advanced sector. You do not have people going into the woods with an axe on their shoulders cutting down trees. You have highly sophisticated equipment, computer runs. Similarly, the mines and the energy sector is a very sophisticated modern part of the economy, and one that is more productive than many other parts of the economy.

On the next page, I just want to emphasize the importance of growth in this sector over the course of the next little while. Canada has more megaprojects going on in this sector over the next few years than we've had for a very long time. In the oil sands of Alberta alone, over $100 billion in investments are projected in the next 10 years. You'll see similar figures here relating to oil and gas, hydroelectricity, and mining. Similar investments off the east coast relate to the offshore and a variety of others. One of the real challenges we have in dealing with these megaprojects is rising costs: the rising value of the Canadian dollar and rising costs generally. But probably the most important challenge for this sector right now is a lack of manpower. Despite movements across the country, in particular from the Maritimes to Alberta, there are real shortages in some parts of the industry, and it's being suggested that if we do not find a way to increase the manpower available to this part of the economy, it is going to slow down development. I think if you have before you in the months and weeks ahead representatives of the various trade associations, they'll confirm this. It's becoming a very, very significant challenge, being able to find the men and women who are necessary to keep this economy going.

I thought I would talk a little bit about the federal and the provincial roles relating to natural resources. You'll be aware, Mr. Chairman, that the provinces own and are constitutionally responsible for the natural resources within their borders. The federal government, on the other hand, has a variety of jurisdictional points that I think are quite important, and these form the basis for natural resources intervention in natural resources--obviously jurisdiction over crown lands, the north, offshore, all nuclear matters, a responsibility for interprovincial and international issues, science and technology, and the not insignificant regulatory power of the federal government, which is used to regulate the environment and other things of that nature.

The way we describe this is that the corollary to respecting the Constitution on this issue is respecting the Constitution. There are two sides to the coin. There's a very legitimate basis for the provinces' jurisdiction in their ownership, but the federal government also has a wide range of authorities and responsibilities to deal with natural resources. I think it's fair to say that by and large NRCan's relations with the provinces and the territories are quite good. We believe that by and large we supplement what they do and that the role of the federal government in this area is welcome.

Having said that, I think it's fair to note that large numbers of other federal departments have a significant impact on the natural resources sector. Environment and DFO, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in particular have a significant regulatory role in mines and forestry and in the energy area. And I may as well tell you, because all our stakeholders will tell you, regulatory reform is one of the major desires of most of the stakeholders who operate in this area. It's also one of my minister's priorities while he is in the portfolio. It's also something the department has been working on over the last couple of years.

But as you will be aware more generally, regulatory reform is very difficult because of the clash between a number of departments that are involved and stakeholders on both sides of the equation. Every time you want to make a regulation more effective, you have stakeholders who are concerned about the substantive objective of the regulation arguing that you're diluting that. So dealing with overlap, duplication, timeframes, and whatnot is a significant issue for the minister and for the industry.

On page 6 we describe the department as a multi-purpose department. Traditionally, it's described as a science and technology department, but I don't think that captures what NRCan does. We do have a significant science and technology capacity. We have I think world class laboratories in mining, in forestry, and in industry, and in many instances we share these facilities and work with the private sector. In some cases we do work for the private sector as well as with it. We also deliver a large array of programs, particularly in the energy policy area and the energy efficiency area, but also in a significant number of other areas.

We also undertake a variety of public good activities. The department is responsible for regulating explosives in Canada and we are the ones who issue permits for the use of explosives. The department has a national system of warning sites for earthquakes and tsunamis. So we have a couple of direct involvements in the management of natural disasters. And we provide a lot of basic geoscience for the economy. This is the kind of science that is needed in order to be able to assist industry to focus its research when it's looking for new mines. A lot of that is provided at one level before the interest of particular companies.

We also believe we have an important economic policy role. That indeed is the role, we think, of the government, which is to develop policies, and our science and technology, our programs, and our public good activities are in support of the government's economic policy activities. We do this through a variety of means: promoting, regulations, and things of that nature.

I think one of the other aspects of NRCan that we'd like to emphasize is that we believe very strongly, as does the minister, that the work activities within the natural resources sector have to be undertaken while balancing economic, social, environmental, and security of supply objectives. It's another way of talking about sustainable development or responsible development. Over the years, depending upon particular preoccupations, you could have security of supply take precedence, or you could have economic activities take precedence, but we believe that one of the things this sector needs to do in a systematic and organized way, helped by the federal government, is to consciously say that decisions in this area are a balance of these four objectives and not with one predominating.

You have a bit of a snapshot on page 7 of the department's location across the country. We have about 4,500 employees across the country. You'll see here we have a variety of sites, virtually in every province and territory. We have a budget of about $1.4 billion, of which about $800 million is transfer payments of one sort or the other.

What I thought I would do now is talk a little bit about some of the issues that are occupying the minister and the department over the course of the weeks and months ahead by just going through them very quickly.

You'll be aware of the importance that everyone is attaching to climate change, and we're working with Environment Canada to develop a somewhat new approach to reducing greenhouse gases and dealing with these issues, while at the same time contributing to the development of clean air and clean water objectives.

Pipelines: there are two really major ones on the drawing board, one being Mackenzie, the other being Alaska. We provide the public service support to Minister Prentice as the minister responsible for pipelines in respect of Alaska, and we work very closely with Indian and Northern Affairs in dealing with Mackenzie.

On the offshore, there is a request from the Province of British Columbia to allow for the lifting of the federal moratorium on offshore oil and gas. We're talking to the province about that, the issue there being, of course, that there's far from unanimity in British Columbia as to whether or not this is a desirable thing. Also, there are significant first nations issues that need to be resolved before I think ministers will be in a position to make a decision.

On geoscience, this relates to what I was mentioning a little while ago, that while Canada has a relatively large number of well functioning and fully functioning mines, many of them are approaching depletion. If the mining industry is going to remain vibrant over the course of the next few decades, new mines will have to be discovered. This is the role of geoscience--to map in particular the northern part of the country, so that the companies involved will be able to use more precision in trying to find new mines. It's also an area in which we need to develop new science and technologies to allow for deep mining. Many of the mines that are becoming depleted have resources beneath the level that now can be mined. We have a range of technological efforts under way to assist the companies to be able to do that.

On softwood lumber, you'll be aware that working with Industry Canada brought a resolution of this issue with the United States some time ago. To address a variety of issues for the forestry industry, the government is making available a package that is something on the order of $400 million over two years. We're working with Industry Canada and other colleagues in the government to try to come up with a range of proposals for ministers. These would involve worker and community adjustment, but would also--and, we think, very importantly--aid in assisting and encouraging the industry to restructure, because there are parts of the industry that we believe really do need to be restructured if they're going to be economically viable. Also, part of these moneys is to fight the mountain pine beetle in British Columbia.

The other issues that I mention on page 3 are somewhat broader and of a longer term, but we need to work on how the natural resources sector is regulated. I've talked about some of the issues there. We need to find another way to promote innovation and skills, to make available the human resources that are necessary to help the industry continue to develop. There are significant issues in dealing with first nations with respect to the three subsectors that I'm talking about. Just about all of the megaprojects we're talking about, and all of the mines and forestry developments, are on lands on which there are either claims or potential claims by first nations. It is a significant challenge for these companies to deal with the legitimate and constitutionalized rights of first nations, so we're working with our colleagues in Indian Affairs and elsewhere to try to help in that respect.

I've already talked a little bit about effective regulation. We're trying to facilitate, to the extent that we can, coordination among a variety of agencies within the Government of Canada to make sure we reduce duplication to the extent we can. NRCan itself is not really a regulatory department--except that, as I said earlier, we regulate explosives--but there are two significant regulatory agencies that report to Parliament through the minister. They are the National Energy Board and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. They have very significant regulatory roles. They work increasingly closely with the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency; we're trying to promote even more coordination there, because one of the great frustrations of industry is that we have two or more regulatory agencies appearing on scene whenever new developments are under way. In particular we're promoting, as much as we can, the principle of substitution, whereby one agency would substitute for another in carrying out regulatory functions--for example, the National Energy Board would carry out the CEAA's functions, so that we wouldn't have two federal agencies dealing with the same stakeholders.

The other area in which we believe we're going to have to spend a great deal more time, money, and effort is fresh water. In fact, I hope personally that the committee can find some time to work on water, because it's an issue that spans a large number of departments. We still don't have enough information about water in Canada, I think, to develop a rational policy. NRCan would be able to contribute a great deal, because we have basically the technical and the scientific capacity to map the aquifers throughout Canada.

The one I skipped on page 9 was the issue of energy R and D. Whether you're talking about greenhouse gases, clean air, or clean water, we very firmly believe that the solution is in research and development and in new technology. It's entirely fair that industry be asked to contribute to the development of new technologies, but the government is in a position to encourage this, both by using the tax system and other incentives and by using its own existing laboratories to push the development of new technologies.

If, for example, we're going to solve the greenhouse gas problem in this country and the world, we're going to have do it through technology. I don't think there's any other way. I think that will be one of the areas the government will want to advance as it brings forward its policies in the months ahead.

I'll conclude by saying that, as you will be aware perhaps better than I am, commodity prices right now in Canada are high. They're very good, except for some parts of the forestry industry that are really having a tough time. Both base metals and precious metals are doing very well. The oil patch is making a great deal of money. We need to organize this growth and work with the province to do this so that this can continue into the future.

I think the other thing we have to do is plan for the day when this will not necessarily be the case. To take the forestry industry as an example, if the United States' economy slows down significantly, it would affect the forestry industry very quickly. I think we need to work with the industry and with the provinces to try to come up with ways of dealing with that sort of thing.

I think over the course of the next five to ten years, decisions that governments at all levels will make will have a significant impact on how successful development will be in these three areas. There is extraordinary potential, particularly in the energy sector. Canada could, I think, legitimately claim to be an energy superpower. We need to make sure that continues. We provide a significant amount of the United States' energy needs, and we could potentially do so for other countries around the world, but we have to do so in a way that develops those resources in a responsible way and in a way that complements and does not trip over the efforts of the provinces.

Over the course of the next year or two, the government is going to face a number of quite significant decisions in this area. There are a number of energy megaprojects--the two pipelines that I was talking about; the offshore moratorium in B.C. will be lifted; there are significant development issues relating to forestry; and, of course, climate change. NRCan, to the extent that it can, is dedicated to supporting the minister and the government in working through potential solutions for these problems.

I've tried to give you a bit of a snapshot of what we do and how we do it. I consciously did it fairly briefly because I've always been told when I appear before parliamentary committees that their main objective in life is not to listen to public servants talk. So I've kept it as short as I could, but I would be glad to answer any questions you might have.

In terms of understanding the department at a greater level of detail, I would really commend these blue books to you: the performance report and the report on plans and priorities. They outline in some considerable detail what this and all other departments do, they reflect our plans for the year ahead, and they report after that year on what we've been able to accomplish.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

That was just way too fast. You know it better than I do, so it's easier for you.

We had two documents distributed. The second one, then, is just more detailed.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

That's correct.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Okay.

Thank you for that. That was a great start. Among other things, it demonstrates just how much we have to learn.

We'll get under way with rounds of questions.

In terms of witnesses appearing, this is a little different from the format we have established. We were going to have 10 minutes and then a round of talks, but obviously we're off that format today.

It's really just an opportunity to do exactly what you said committees don't want to do. We do want to pick your brain. We want to know what your department does. So we want to take the time to do that adequately and respond to the members so that their questions are answered to the extent that you can today.

I note that you have a couple of other officials from the department with you. If you expect that they may be involved in responding, they're welcome. We have a couple of extra chairs at the table. Perhaps you would like to bring them forward and introduce them before we start, and then I'll go with the questions.

Are Dr. Tobin and Ms. Buckley here?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

Yes.

Carol Buckley is from our energy technology policy sector, and Richard Tobin is the assistant deputy minister of the corporate management sector and he worries about things such as finance, personnel, and technology.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I'm sure we'll have questions for both of you. Thank you as well for coming.

With that, unless there are any general comments right off the bat, I think we'll just proceed to questions in the order and in the manner that we discussed the other day, and that would be starting with Mr. McGuinty. I think we'll just do it on a five-minute basis, if you'd like to go that way, and that way we can alternate and get everybody involved in the first round.

We'll start with Mr. McGuinty and then perhaps go to Mr. Cardin and Ms. Bell, and then we'll go over to the Conservative side here.

With that, if that's agreeable to everybody, I'd like to start the questioning with Mr. McGuinty.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for coming.

Mr. Fadden, I'd like to go back to a couple of comments you made about the purpose of the department. You are, I understand, the only department with enabling legislation that speaks directly to the concept of sustainable development. It is part of the preamble sections of the act that creates your department, and as such I always assumed NRCan was supposed to be almost a demonstration project for other line departments.

I appreciated your comments about the interdepartmental differences and challenges you face, as well as the multi-stakeholder competing challenges you face with some of the decisions you mentioned earlier, for example, continuing energy megaprojects, the B.C. moratorium, the pipeline, climate change. And I note, just in passing, that in your identification of future unprecedented opportunities for growth there is no reference to nuclear.

But I want to go to the heart of something that has been troubling me and that might help us, as a committee, understand where we should focus our priorities, our energy, and our limited resources. I don't know how the government intends to proceed with respect to the Kyoto Protocol. I don't think any of us really know at this stage. It is a new government, and in fairness, it's probably trying to figure out what it wants to do. The Minister of the Environment is attending a meeting in Bonn in just over a week. As a member of Parliament, I don't know who's in charge of the climate change file. Is it your minister? Is it the Minister of the Environment? Is it the Prime Minister? Is it cabinet collectively?

Our government had a cabinet committee for sustainable development, four or five ministers coming together to try to reflect the notion of sustainable development and its implementation. That's no longer the case. That may be rebooted, I don't know.

But the question I have for you that would be interesting for us I think to decide where we should focus is along the following lines. We have a North American energy working group. We've had it for several years now. I've tracked its work very closely. The Prime Minister was in Mexico with the American President and the Mexican President recently. They spoke about energy security, energy markets, but they didn't utter the words “greenhouse gases” once, not in official communiqués, not in speeches, not in questions taken from reporters.

What is the situation right now with respect to the new government, your department, and the Kyoto Protocol? And you mentioned a North American accord on greenhouse gases. What is the lay of the land right now? Where are we going and who's in charge?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. McGuinty, if I could interject before Mr. Fadden responds--and I'm not going to take this time from your questions, David--it's my intention and my hope that we would have the minister appear here probably as early as next week, and I must admit I was a little taken aback by the drift of your question at the moment. My sense of this meeting was that it was really going to be an information kind of a meeting for the department officials, not getting into government policy. That kind of question seems to me to be something that certainly the minister would be prepared to respond to, but I just wanted to lay that out for you. You're certainly entitled to ask any question you want and to the extent that he can, the deputy's able to respond. But in terms of policy direction, new direction, it's all pretty new for all of us here, and some of that might be more appropriate for the minister when he comes, David. I just want to say that.

I don't want to put you on the spot here, witnesses. When I invited you I may have misled you to suggest that you were just going to provide general information on the department and background for members and not get into political or partisan policy matters at this point quite yet.

Sorry, David, I've interrupted you and I'm not taking that off your time, but I just wanted to leave that out.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I was probably able to answer part of Mr. McGuinty's question, because I do think some parts of it are better answered by the minister.

To start with the simplest part, it's very clear that the Prime Minister has indicated that Ms. Ambrose as Minister of the Environment has the lead on Kyoto, on greenhouse gases, on climate change—whatever characterization you want to give to it—but the government has also made it very clear that this is not a problem for Environment alone. If you look at Mr. Lunn's ministry, over 50% of greenhouse gases are generated by the natural resources sector. So he certainly has a significant role in coming up with a solution.

One of the messages I have gotten from the minister is that we need to work very closely, arguably closer than we have, with Environment Canada to come up with a package of proposals for the government.

In terms of where we're heading, I don't think I can answer that except to say that the government has made it very clear that it wants to develop what I think they call a made in Canada plan to deal with greenhouse gases. We're trying to develop a variety of proposals from within NRCan to assist that. My understanding is it would be the government's intention to deal with this early in the autumn, although the minister might be able to confirm that.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Let me ask this way.

Would it be important for this committee to examine the implications of a potential shift away from obligations and commitments under Kyoto to something new? Leaving aside any politics, and, Mr. Chairman, I completely accept and respect your caution on that—I don't want to ask you political questions that are in the realm of the ministers and cabinet and so on—should we be focusing our energies, then, as a committee on examining what the implications of that shift might be?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

I think the beginning of the shift, if I can put it that way, Mr. Chairman, is the view of the government that without a significant downturn in the economy, or really significant—in the billions of dollars—investment, it would be impossible for the Government of Canada to meet its Kyoto commitments within the timeframe. I think both my minister and Ms. Ambrose have said that.

What we're trying to do for ministers is develop a range of policies and options that will still lead absolutely in the same direction your government did when you were in power, which is a reduction in greenhouse gases. I think what ministers need to come to grips with is the timeframe and exactly how they want to do it.

It's not really for me to say whether it's a good thing or a bad thing for you to examine it. My preference would be that ministers be given an opportunity to develop a view before the committee really launches into it, but that of course is for you to decide.

There are a variety of existing programs that are being continued for the time being that help on the greenhouse gases front. Even if you just read the literature generally, there are a variety of other things that could be done, some that might even have been contemplated by your government and some new ones that will be proposed to ministers.

I'm not trying to be cute in not answering your question. It's just that it's very difficult for me to talk before the committee about what I talk about with my minister. But I do want to say, and Mr. Lunn asked me to say this, that he is absolutely committed to the idea of assisting Canada to reach its greenhouse gas reduction goals. What we're talking about is not whether, but how and under what timeframe.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Finally, then, Mr. Fadden, with respect to the needs you identified.... You talked about water, and you particularly mentioned aquifer mapping. The hydro-geology behind water is something we're not really good at yet in this country; we haven't done a lot of it. Then you mentioned regulatory reform. We did have a two-year panel on smart regulation, with a series of very profound recommendations for change, including some in the area of sustainable development. You mentioned becoming an energy superpower.

But I want to focus on something else that I call ecological fiscal reform. Would it be useful for this committee to examine the tax treatment and the spending priorities of the government with respect to energy projects? For example, the NDP regularly raise the notion that there's a $1.2 billion subsidy. I'm not sure exactly what they're talking about. I think they're referring to the investment tax credit for fossil fuel investment, in the oil sands particularly—an ITC that is not, for example, offered in the north but is offered in the oil sands specifically, in a hundred-billion-dollar project.

Is this ecological fiscal reform concept something the committee ought to be looking at? Does it have legs? Is it going to be important to help us shift to reduce greenhouse gases?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

I actually think it would be, Mr. Chairman, in part because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about this. You implied that in your question.

For example, a lot of people are of the view that the federal government shouldn't spend any money on helping the oil sands develop. But I think it escapes many people that the federal treasury benefits more from the oil sands than does the Alberta treasury. Just adding this kind of information—the consequences of tax changes and things of that nature—would be very useful.

Having said that, I have a large number of colleagues in the Department of Finance who will beat me about the head if I don't remind you that tax policy is the responsibility of Mr. Flaherty and of the finance committee. But having said that, in the context of natural resources, it's something, I think, that is not particularly well understood. If the committee decides to go there, we would certainly be willing to help to the extent that we can in moving forward on that front.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

That's great.

Thank you, David.

I'd like to move now to Mr. Cardin.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the committee. You will probably be regular guests, since the committee is now entirely dedicated to natural resources.

“Creating a sustainable resource future for Canadians”... Clearly, most natural resources are not renewable, most notably in the mining and oil sectors. As for forests, it is possible to renew this form of energy. From the point of view of developing renewable resources, I would like to know how you apply the concept of “sustainable resources” to the oil and mining sectors.

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Generally speaking, the department has adopted Ms. Brundtland's definition. You no doubt remember the Brundtland Commission which was created several years ago and which was a major United Nations commission. The commission proposed a definition whereby, when resources such as energy are used, it is not necessary to renew this type of energy in particular, but to ensure that, through science, technology or research, a substitute resource is available in the future. That is really the definition we use.

Several private sector organizations and organizations within civil society believe that we should always be able to replace what is being used in the same subsector. For our part, we believe that the definition of the Brundtland Commission has a more reasonable application, since it refers to the constant renewal of a resource, but not necessarily of the same resource.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

You said a little earlier that as far as the use of non-renewable energy is concerned, natural resources were responsible for over 50 per cent of greenhouse gases. As for fossil fuels, which also emit a significant quantity of greenhouse gases, their sustainable exploitation and use should make them secondary energy sources, which would considerably increase their life span and their accessibility, don't you think?

The natural resource budget is $1.1 billion.

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

And the natural resources industry employs 45,000 people?

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

No, it's 4,500. But I sure wish it was 45,000.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

As you know, the knowledge sector is important today. One has to be able to create, to innovate and to invent different means to make up for shortfalls. What part of your global budget is spent on the research and development of renewable sources of energy?

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources

Richard Fadden

I personally don't know and I don't know if one my colleagues has those numbers. If not, we will get them to you within a day or two.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

It would be interesting to find out how much of the budget is spent on research and development per sector.

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources