Evidence of meeting #6 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was efficiency.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hans Konow  Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group
David MacInnis  President, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, Energy Dialogue Group
Robert Hornung  President, Canadian Wind Energy Association, Energy Dialogue Group
Murray Elston  President and CEO, Canadian Nuclear Association, Energy Dialogue Group
Brian Maynard  Vice-President, Stewardship and Public Affairs, Atlantic Canada, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I notice that we have more than a quorum, and I'm going to get right into it, this being our sixth meeting on 6/6/06, the clerk tells me. Not being in any way superstitious, I won't let that trouble me at all.

We have today the Energy Dialogue Group that we were to have met in Calgary and unfortunately were unable to do that. So I'm very pleased that all of you were able to come here.

The format we have been working with would be to give you time to start. Have we talked about this? We had been doing ten minutes each. So you have talked about this amongst yourselves and sorted it out as to how you want to present.

Without further ado, then, we'll just get at it.

Hans, are you going to start off?

11:05 a.m.

Hans Konow Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Mr. Chairman, thank you.

My name is Hans Konow, chair, president, and CEO of the Canadian Electricity Association, and chair this year of the Energy Dialogue Group, and that's why I'm here.

Thank you for your invitation. I am going to introduce all my colleagues to you.

With me today are David MacInnis from CEPA, the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association; Brian Maynard from CAPP, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers; Robert Hornung from the Canadian Wind Association; and Murray Elston from the Canadian Nuclear Association.

We are basically the steering committee for the Energy Dialogue Group, which represents some 19 associations that have come together to create a dialogue and an interaction on energy matters.

With that, Mr. Chairman, would you like me to begin the presentation? The format we've decided on--

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

[Inaudible--Editor]...and then we will do the questioning at the completion of your remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

I believe all members have a copy of our overheads. I will quickly run through the presentation and try to respect a 30-minute deadline for that, and then we will be at your disposal for questions and answers.

On page 2 is the list of all the members of the Energy Dialogue Group. Our focus, as the slide indicates, is to encourage a broader debate around energy policy with all stakeholders. We do interface with the Council of Energy Ministers on an annual basis.

At the most fundamental level, the Energy Dialogue Group exists to encourage a balanced approach to Canada's energy system. We believe that what's needed in Canada are more efficient ways to ensure the development of energy resources, delivery infrastructure, and improved energy services. We recognize the need to adapt to the higher-priced reality that we are all facing with respect to energy by maximizing the choices we have, accelerating energy efficiency, and dealing with the challenges of vulnerable consumers.

Canadians and their governments need to work together to develop real, sustainable solutions to our energy and environment challenges, and I will get into many of those in the course of this conversation. We believe there's a need for a clearly articulated energy framework in Canada that recognizes jurisdictional authorities and the value of working cooperatively across governments.

On the fourth slide, we would like to bring you up to date on what we're doing within the Council of Energy Ministers process. There are four work tracks. There's one on energy efficiency, which has supporting it a working group at the assistant deputy minister level, drawn from federal-provincial governments as well as industry and NGOs. There are several studies that have been completed, and I will talk to those later in the deck. We continue to pursue information and public understanding, technology development, and more effective and efficient regulation. On the latter three work tracks, far less has been accomplished.

The fifth area is not a formal work track but a preoccupation for our industries, and that is the human resources challenges. They are rooted, first and foremost, in the aging of our population, but also in the skills challenge in ensuring we have adequate resources for the major project developments that are under way, particularly well known in the Fort McMurray area.

Slide 5, “Energy Matters”--quite clearly, it does. We're all aware of it, but it doesn't hurt to remind ourselves that energy lies at the heart of any modern economy. It's central to economic development and to productivity, it's fundamental to security and our well-being, and it's critical to environmental management. Many federal responsibilities exist, such as cross-border energy transportation, energy efficiency, R and D, nuclear, environmental files, national security, aboriginal issues, skills and infrastructure, trade, etc.

The next slide is a table of contents, and we can flip right past that to slide 7. I'll get into some of these attributes in this section.

The energy system includes everything from energy sources to energy services. On this slide, in the box entitled “Sources”, you can see some of the resources that go into our energy system, from crude oil, to natural gas, to the flow of rivers that are dammed, to the use of uranium and coal. All of those are then transformed through technologies such as those embedded in our refineries, through our hydro generators, through various processes into energy commodities. Those commodities--gasoline, electricity, natural gas--then power technologies that deliver the final end services to Canadians, be it the automobile, the light bulb, the furnace--those are illustrative. There are many technologies used that then deliver what people really come to expect when they pay their energy bill: heating, light, motive power, etc.

Each of those has unique attributes. For example, gasoline, motive fuel, has to be portable and has to have a high-power density to be efficient. We've struggled with this in trying to address some of the issues of the transportation sector, and there are no easy solutions.

On home electricity, again, reliability, stability, etc., nobody wants to readjust their clocks every time they come home.

On space heating, there are many options, but the degree of responsiveness and reliability are core to Canadians' expectations.

The next slide talks about long-term demand growth and what is basically the picture. I won't dwell on this slide. There are two interesting things to take away: Canada's energy demand increased by 1.5% per year between 1990 and 2003. That's a pretty typical number. If you look at the graph, the really interesting fact there is that GDP growth and energy consumption have been decoupled to some considerable extent since about the mid-1990s. That's reflective of energy efficiency in our industrial sector and structural change from high consumption industries to a more service-based economy. That's the one area in which we've seen significant energy efficiency growth.

On the next slide you see a little bit more granularity in terms of what underlies that 1.5% growth rate. You see the 1.3% decrease in energy intensity. That's the good news. On the flip side, you see that economic activity per person has actually increased, so you have 1.8% growth there, and population has increased as well. What it nets out at is that 1.5% growth figure.

Slide 10 gives us demand by sector. Again, you can see the overlay of generally rising demand. Again, different segments exhibit different velocities, but overall there is absolute growth in demand. The box shows you that in some areas energy intensity is improving. That's a good news story. Again, the most dramatic area is industrial, with a negative 1.8% average intensity decline.

Slide 11 talks about the growing supply for domestic use. We are a very fortunate country to have the energy resources we have. They are substantial. The basic share, as you can see, is 41% petroleum, 31% natural gas, 12% coal, and 13% primary electricity. Each source has its own unique characteristics and its unique production and transformation system. We'll talk a little bit more about that.

Slide 12 talks about one of the challenges we hear most about today, and that's energy affordability. What does it mean for consumers? It means a great deal to our economic competitiveness. You can see in the upper box some sectoral energy intensity examples, paper being the most dramatic at almost 25% of the end value. The value-added is energy, so the price of energy is extremely important in that business. It's pretty significant in the other three, including total manufacturing at something in the area of 6% or 7%.

It's also important for consumers whose well-being is affected by their purchase of energy commodities. In the lower box you can see there is a differentiated impact depending upon whether you're comparatively well off or comparatively challenged. For those least fortunate, energy can account for up to something less than 10% or 9% of their income, whereas for the most advantaged quartile it's about 5%, so it does have a differentiated impact on our citizens.

Slide 13 talks about energy affordability. The reality is input costs continue to escalate for virtually all energy forms. More remote and unconventional resources are being brought to market, and there is the ongoing need to meet our environmental goals, all of which requires investment and technological progress. So we certainly need to have a competitive investment climate. We need predictable and enduring policy that attracts investors to Canada as a means of enhancing the system's sustainability.

The reality of rising costs is reflected in prices, and policy should facilitate, in our view, adaptation by both industry and consumers. Obviously, energy efficiency is a key strategy in dealing with that. Citizens don't buy a commodity in its own right so much as they buy the services. So if we can have efficient transformation technologies at the point of use, then we can help them manage their bills. Again, the capital stock turnover at the consumer level also takes substantial time, so we need to continue the processes we have under way in improving the efficiency of consumer capital stock as well as our own.

The next slide talks about industry as a major contributor to the economy. The numbers are all big, as would be expected. Canada, as I said earlier, is extremely fortunate in its energy resource endowment. That translates into a great deal of contribution to GDP, and to our exports. We do import a great deal of energy resources as well, but as you can see, we're clearly a net exporter. We invest a great deal in the capital stock of our industry, and in terms of our companies, we're capitalized at a level of some $375 billion.

We're a major employer, and we're a major contributor to government coffers as well. The upstream oil and natural gas industry, for instance, employs something in the order of half a million Canadians and contributed $18 billion to governments in 2004.

The next slide is a bit of a replay of an earlier one that we shared with you. It speaks about the environmental footprint of the energy system. There is nothing we do that does not have an environmental implication--that's just a reality of it. Managing our environmental footprint is a key and core challenge for us; different sources have different types and different magnitudes of footprint. We affect land, air, water, and wildlife to one degree or another, so we have to focus on the challenge of balancing benefits and impacts.

Slide 16 talks about one particular challenge that gets a great deal of attention today, and that's greenhouse gas emissions. Energy is an important source of greenhouse gas emissions, and as you see from the chart on the right, the annual growth rate between 1990 and 2002 is almost the same as the energy growth rate. So there's clearly a close relationship between the two. Again, the one mitigating factor is the energy to GDP relationship, which helps to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions by improving that intensity.

The latest figures for 2004, which are not on your chart, we're told just came out. There was some 758 tonnes. That's up 0.6% from 2003. It's a relatively modest increase, and part of that is as a result of a decrease in electricity emissions. Again, there is a mix of technologies.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Was that 0.6%?

11:15 a.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

Yes, 0.6%. Those figures are from NRCan, I believe, so they're public data.

In the next chart we situate the Canadian circumstances that I've just discussed in the global setting. Looking at slide 18, we can see that Canada's circumstances are not very different from the global setting. In terms of world energy demand, we're seeing growth, according to the International Energy Agency, of about 1.6% per year. More than two-thirds of that is coming from developing countries. There should be no great surprise there. If we look forward, the OECD share of world demand is expected to decline to about 42% in 2030 from the current 52%. Of that, natural gas, oil, and coal are expected to provide about 83% of increase in demand.

Slide 19 talks about the world energy investment outlook. In order to meet this projected demand, estimates range in the order of $17 trillion to be invested worldwide between 2004 and 2030, about $3.5 trillion of that in North America alone. While these are huge numbers, they are certainly supportable in terms of financial markets. The issue will be more one of being able to sink that capital effectively and in a timely fashion to meet the expectations and needs particularly of the developing world and to deal with the added stress of that growth in competing for world commodities, particularly oil. That's part of why we see the prices we do today. From Canada's point of view in that setting, there's certainly no other sector in which Canada has as much weight globally as we do in the energy sector. We are a significant player.

The only other point I'd make is that in the chart on that page, the size of the electricity bar is interesting. Electrification in the developing world is far less advanced, obviously, than it is in the developed world. What we take for granted has yet to be deployed across the vast swaths of Asia, South America, and other areas. The scale of electricity investment certainly surprised me when I looked at this global data. It's actually the giant when it comes to share of the $17 trillion.

The next slide, on page 20, talks about Canada in that international setting. We're clearly a major producer and net exporter--we've noted that. We rank ninth in terms of oil and twelfth in terms of oil exports, third in terms of natural gas and second in the world in terms of natural gas exports. In uranium, we're number one across the page, and in electricity we're up in the top ten.

There are obviously regional trading patterns. Western Canada primarily exports energy, and eastern Canada primarily imports energy, which creates an interesting duality. Electricity is very much part of interconnected regional markets that cross the international boundary. We're deeply interconnected with the United States, region by region.

The next page addresses the necessary commitment Canada needs to have for multilateral cooperation. Clearly, as we've discussed, the energy system is increasingly global in terms of trade, investment, technology, labour, prices, and even the environmental footprint, if you think in terms of global warming gases. Multilateral cooperation, therefore, will be essential in optimizing the world energy system.

Multilateral international cooperation is a complement to our bilateral relationship with the United States. One area to think about that's moving more from bilateral to multilateral is the area of natural gas. Once you get into liquefied natural gas transportation, it extends sources from what was a continental relationship to one that becomes a global relationship.

North America is a big importer of oil. Notwithstanding the fact that we're a net exporter, we do import oil into eastern Canada, and we probably will become a big natural gas importer as well.

Canada and the U.S. are both founding members of the International Energy Agency, and we have worked on international cooperation for many years. We've negotiated provisions under the General Agreement on Trade in Services that cover energy services. Within North America, we have a North American energy working group that coordinates energy sector activities among Canada, the U.S., and Mexico.

The next slide, 22, shows Canada-U.S. energy trade. No big surprises here. Canada produces more energy per capita than any other G-8 country. NAFTA provides assurances of both market security and market access. Energy sector exports and imports have grown by roughly 12% and 10%, respectively, since 1991. We exported more than $65 billion worth of energy to the United States alone last year.

That's the international setting.

We'd like to talk a bit now about the energy future and how we see it. If we move to page 24, I think the title is probably appropriate, “Building on Success”. While we understand and recognize that we have many challenges in terms of our energy circumstances, we're very fortunate to have the ones we have, which are the challenges of abundance and dealing with the implications of abundance.

The alternative would be that we would be sitting here talking to you about energy security and how to compete for the global resources to meet our needs. Canada is in a uniquely well-placed position, given our rich endowment. But we must maintain and enhance our commitments to international trade and cooperation to be successful.

Our North American energy system is highly integrated and provides a wealth of shared benefits, but it has responsibilities as well. We need to work on the institutional framework that links Canada and the United States, and as we've discussed, the world energy system will become increasingly integrated. That provides both opportunities and challenges for Canada in terms of trade investment and expertise. We need to make sure that we prevent new barriers to trade and cooperation from forming, either inadvertently or otherwise.

For these reasons, the next slide shows an energy framework, which we believe matters. What we think we're calling for when we talk about an energy framework is a clear articulation of government's positions with respect to energy policy. We think we need to reinforce a core policy that's founded on market orientation, stable investment climate, competitive fiscal environment, and open trade. We believe there's a need to clarify the federal roles and to respect jurisdictions. We need to look at and guide spending priorities. We need to create a policy context for regulatory reform. We need to help shape climate change policy. We need to better communicate with the public so that they better understand our realities.

The next slide, entitled “The Need for Action Has Grown”, is on page 26. In recent years, EDG has identified three principal pressures: the need for a new supply and delivery capability; the need to adapt to the higher prices, which we have been discussing; and the need to find sustainable solutions to our environmental challenges. We believe that compared to even a year ago, all three are more pressing today.

In looking at those on page 27, it all starts with demand. Energy demand in Canada, as I mentioned, is set to grow between 1% and 1.5% per year. Our economic partners’ demand is also growing, so our export markets are looking to Canadian supply. There's lots of opportunity, and we are viewed in the world as a reliable supplier. But demand growth, combined with tight supply, bring policy and political challenges in terms of affordability, reliability, and environmental impacts. In our view, therefore, energy efficiency is a strategic policy issue, and we strongly support it.

The next slide looks at energy efficiency. As I mentioned to you earlier, within the energy ministerial process, one of the work tracks is energy efficiency. There is good engagement on the part of governments, both provincial and federal. Industry has sponsored two studies, one on the energy efficiency potential and another on measurement and data. The results from these are portrayed here.

We hired the two best-known research houses, Marbek Resource Consultants and M.K. Jaccard and Associates. One is a top-down kind of modeller and the other a bottom-up modeller. We locked them in a room and told them they couldn't come out until they came up with some answers, which they did.

What they tell us, when they look ahead at an achievable potential range for energy efficiency out to 2025, is that it would be somewhere in the range of 3% to 10% of total energy demand. That may not sound like a lot, but at the top end that is 50% of growth, so it's a very substantial amount.

To achieve the top end of their forecast would require social engineering and other dramatic interventions. For those who think energy efficiency is something that can be easily developed and delivered, the message we got from these studies is that it's hard work, like everything else. It's hard work that has to be done and that we are committed to doing, together with consumers, but the scale of it is such that it's no magic bullet. It's part of a portfolio of strategies that will deliver solutions. It's not, on its own, the answer to our challenges.

Energy savings, as estimated by the consultants, could range anywhere from $3.2 billion to $15 billion in 2025.

What other approaches can we look at? We certainly recognize the trend since the sixties towards greater energy supply diversification. If you look on page 29, you can see some of the trends of the different dominant fuel cycles that have worked their way through the economy. Each cycle is less dominant than the last one and lasts a shorter time. Until today there is a more balanced—I guess would be a way to look at it—portfolio of inputs. Oil is still number one—the red line. Natural gas is number two. Hydro and nuclear are down there in third place. And coal is just below that.

All of these, as well as the emerging renewable technologies, particularly wind, with the highest growth velocity—all of the input opportunities—will have to be developed and represent part of Canada's diverse and abundant supply mix.

The next slide is entitled “New capacity needs new investment”. Clearly we talked about some pretty large numbers being sunk into energy systems. Investment will go where opportunities and returns are best, and investors look for a stable, attractive investment environment.

The biggest constraint in terms of timely sinking of new capital has been approvals processes; that's across the board, with all the technologies. There is a complex web of regulatory processes that have to be navigated. Some good work has been done in trying to create single-window approaches, but much remains to be done. Our timelines for major projects are still up to a decade and beyond in length, and even routine, smaller projects can take several years.

Another issue for us, and an extremely complex one, is that of the aboriginal relationship: from land claims, which are certainly not the purview of industry but can become barriers in some of our projects, to working with native communities on community acceptance of projects, to sharing of benefits and sharing of jobs.

The good news is there are some tremendous opportunities, because we do our work increasingly out in regions where native populations are dominant and where we are therefore in a position to deliver jobs to native communities.

Looking at the bottom of the page, we believe there is a need to breathe new life into regulatory reform, looking for effective as well as efficient and timely regulation.

On page 31, environment and energy need to be linked, and indeed they are linked. Energy is the biggest environmental issue, and environment is the single biggest factor in our energy future. This joined-at-the-hip condition is a reality that we simply have to face up to and deal with. Years of climate change policy that did not fully appreciate this reality have not met expectations. A new approach, in our view, is needed. The linking of files can help stabilize energy investment, environment, and, at the same time, produce real gains for GHGs and air quality. Climate and air quality have to be dealt with, we think, in the near term, and both can only be dealt with successfully, in our view, within a coherent energy framework.

How do we address some of these things? Technology is the critical variable, both for energy and for the environment. New technology is needed across the board in terms of dealing with our fossil resources; in updating our nuclear capacity; in bringing hydro to market; in advancing our rapid wind build-up; in addressing geothermal opportunities, fuel cells, transmission, automated and smart distribution, and more efficient technology at the end use. Across-the-board technology is an absolute key to achieving our goals.

We think there's a federal role here, which is a critical one. NRCan has many programs, although limited resources, and can partner with both provincial governments and with the private sector in advancing these technologies. Overall, energy technology has been a relatively poor cousin in the federal technology portfolio. However, we think that should be addressed.

On page 33, people and skills, as I mentioned earlier, are a growing bottleneck. We're all familiar with the stories from Alberta of rapid growth and constraint due to difficulty in getting enough skilled individuals on sites. It's certainly driving up the costs of projects, but it's spreading out to all industries and in all provinces. Energy, and natural resources more broadly, will need a share of the federal effort in proportion to our continuing role in the economy. It's not only industry that is under pressure, but also policy and regulatory processes. The complexity, the number, and the scope of the projects that these processes are now facing mean that the capacity of many regulatory authorities to process things in a timely fashion, even if they wanted to, is constrained. The federal government, in our view, needs to ensure that policy and regulatory capacity for agencies under its aegis is appropriately taken care of.

All of the things we've been talking about are predicated, of course, on a level of public support. Public opinion on energy is a mass of contradictions. People, for obvious reasons, want it to be cheap. They want it to be perfectly reliable, do not want any environmental impact, and would prefer it to be built in somebody else's backyard. It's just a reality that we all share. It's rather hard to get away from it, but I think it's important that we don't indulge in rhetoric that suggests there are easy solutions, because there really are none in grappling with these difficult and complex issues. But neither is it hopeless. We need I think a commitment to a steady effort to reframe our messages and to communicate information clearly to the public in various ways. Information needs to be readily available, needs to come from trusted sources, and of course needs to be reliable.

We are prepared as an industry to step up. We've been trying to power up a number of sites, including the Canadian Centre for Energy Information in Calgary, but we do look to government to play a role. One of our concerns is that key data is at risk in terms of funding StatsCan data gathering and the analytical capacity at NRCan.

It's important that all Canadians have accurate data in order to make their own judgments with respect to the propositions we place before them.

So in summary, let me just say that we're fully engaged. This is part of that kind of process. We welcome it. In organizing under the Energy Dialogue Group, we've contributed to the deliberations of energy ministers, we've developed a perspective on an energy framework, we are participating and driving the energy efficiency and information agendas within that process I described to you, and we are reaching out to all stakeholders and parties to engage in a broad discussion.

With that, I thank you for your patience and look forward to our conversation.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you very much.

Before we continue, I just want to make further note of the meeting that was previously scheduled for today that was to have occurred in Calgary. We were going to have a more extended version of what you've just heard--and I hope we're able to do that at a future date--but in addition to that, we were also going to hear from the Pembina Institute for Appropriate Development, I suppose, by way of some balance on some of these issues.

You mentioned in your remarks the energy efficiency work tracks you're on. I met, on behalf of the committee, with the Pembina Institute this morning and will provide some of that information to the committee. I hope we'll have a future opportunity to hear from the Pembina Institute. But they did mention a dialogue group they were also involved with. You mentioned ADMs from the federal and provincial governments. Could you maybe bring the committee up to date on that group? We may want to hear more about that.

11:45 a.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

There are several groups that are involved in energy efficiency. The one I was mentioning is the assistant deputy ministers' steering group on energy efficiency under the energy ministers process. It brings together, as I mentioned, governments--all levels--NGOs, and industry. It began its work by looking at two foundation documents that we shepherded through the process I described to you, one on energy potential and one on metrics in reporting, because data does matter, as we've noted.

It's also looking at transportation through a separate subgroup, and it will now begin to orient itself towards what its next goals would be based on having created a foundation of information. We'll see where that takes us. So it's in its early stages of working its way through an agenda.

There's a separate group under the energy sustainability table exercise, and that's another government-industry-NGO working group that's looking at a long-term agenda for energy efficiency. It's in its very early days.

So there are a lot of processes going on that are looking at different aspects of energy efficiency. Those are two I'm familiar with.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I just wanted the committee to be familiar with that, because we get into questions, and that is partly the purpose of your visit here today and of our deliberations over the past month and over the past couple of weeks. We're looking at a broad cross-section of natural resources in the country and we are looking for specific topics to pursue at greater length. So it's helpful for us to know what else is going on out there.

You spoke about an energy framework. That's one that seems to be recurring here. There's also the relationship with the environment that may have to come back to this committee as well in terms of an energy framework, environment, and balance. So I was pleased to hear that.

Without any further ado, I'll get on to the questions with the committee. We've established a format that begins with the official opposition.

We'll hear from Mr. McGuinty.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thanks for appearing. Perhaps I can fire out a couple of questions and then you can decide amongst yourselves how to answer best.

Post-election there's been a lot of talk that's been very confusing for Canadians about the Kyoto Protocol--our obligations thereunder, how far emissions have increased. The UN says 24, the government says 36. Yesterday the Minister of Justice actually said on the floor, in a debate related to other matters, that there was no evidence underpinning the Kyoto Protocol. He actually said that.

First off, what is the position of the Energy Dialogue Group on the Kyoto Protocol? That's question one.

Two, Ontario is now running a series of advertisements on television about conservation costs being lower than generation costs. Just as we know that $80 oil is having a direct bearing on the economics of oil sands, I guess we're to assume that this kind of cost is also having an impact on potential conservation technologies, conservation efficiencies, and so on. Perhaps you could comment on that.

Third, why aren't you called the Energy “and Environment” Dialogue Group? Why wouldn't, for example, environmental groups be working with you hand in glove to come up with a more inclusive position on energy, going forward?

Finally, you talk about efficiency in metrics. Can you tell us how far your sectors have gone in terms of metrics--things like energy intensity, materials intensity, water intensity? We can't meaningfully compare your industries now. We can't even compare companies within your sectors. It's often apples and oranges, bananas and grapefruits. Can you give us some idea of how far the thinking has gone in metrics?

11:50 a.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

Thank you for those questions.

First, you were asking about Kyoto. I guess I'll take it from the top, and then I'll ask other of my colleagues to reflect on it. I came to deliver the opening presentation, but others have insights that they'll want to share with you as well--

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I'm sorry to interrupt, but perhaps I can introduce everybody, just for the benefit of the committee.

We have David MacInnis, president of the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, prepared to respond.

It is not Pierre Alvarez but Brian Maynard who is here for the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.

Robert Hornung is here as president of the Canadian Wind Energy Association. I should add that, really as a backup to this group, Robert will be appearing before the committee on June 13. You can go in depth with him then on alternative energy sources.

Murray Elston is president and CEO of the Canadian Nuclear Association.

I see we also have some supporting cast in the audience. They could probably be called upon to answer too.

Again, I'm sorry to interrupt, Hans. Please continue; you have at least two minutes left.

11:50 a.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

Okay. I will try to be quick.

First of all, we don't have a formal position on Kyoto. We are doing some work to try to bring together some views on climate change and Kyoto. Each of the respective associations have their own positions on Kyoto.

The point we're trying to make here is that we have talked a lot and have done relatively little effectively. We think there are strategies that make a lot of sense in terms of the longer term, dealing with real emissions from real projects. When we looked at some of the challenges facing us in terms of the Kyoto timeframe, and being able to reduce absolute emissions from existing projects, we ended up with a clear recognition that the only way we could meet the targets would be to buy our way to compliance, i.e. to buy offsets in order to comply with our obligations.

The electricity industry, and I'll speak for that, tends to have infrastructure that operates for 40 years or beyond. We can't turn it on or off overnight. I think the good news is to look at the technologies on the horizon. In terms of electricity, we're almost 75% non-emitting, so we're looking at a distinct slice of our fuel mix, largely based on coal but some natural gas, that we have to deal with.

There are technologies we can see available to deal with those, but they will take 15 to 20 years to prove commercially viable and deploy. If you look at the electricity system of the far distant future, you will see a world in which our emissions will be extremely low. There is potential to deal with this as climate change in a climate change sense of timeline. Within Kyoto, we would have to buy our way to compliance. I'll let others respond for their sectors.

Your second question was about conservation costs lower than supply. There certainly are conservation or energy efficiency opportunities that are lower than some supply costs, but you can't make a blanket statement about it. It's a curve like supply curves and demand curves. They are all pretty much one and the same.

Our view, and why we call it a strategic opportunity, is to harvest the lower ends of the curves and move up as the price of energy resources move up. If we're sensible about it, we optimize the system and we optimize the purchase strategies of consumers in ways that minimize price shock to these folks. I think we have to create an integrated approach to demand side and supply side opportunities.

On the third, energy and environmental groups, and why aren't we the Energy “and Environmental” Dialogue Group, it is because we came together under energy ministers. As a mechanism we came together originally as the voice of the energy industry, whereby instead of 19 talking heads, they got one. That was greatly appreciated at the time, but we have been reaching out to environmental groups. We sit down on a regular basis with our colleagues in environmental groups and talk about what we're doing, they talk about what they're doing, and we look for areas of common opportunity. And we will continue to do that.

In terms of metrics and energy intensities, I must admit I don't have much of an answer for you. We depend, in electricity, at any rate--and I'll let others speak for their data sources--to a considerable extent on government sources for the raw input. We do studies, such as the one I cited to you. I have not seen anything that we've done recently on energy intensities per se, beyond the trend lines I displayed to you. There probably is work done by member companies in terms of technologies at the consuming end, and work with customers in terms of driving energy efficiency from the bottom up, as it were, but gathering all of that input and refining it into some usable numbers, we have not done that to date.

I would open the floor to others on those questions.

11:55 a.m.

David MacInnis President, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, Energy Dialogue Group

If I may, Mr. Chair, with respect to Kyoto, I think Canada is getting off base. The issue isn't about the Kyoto Protocol; the issue is about climate change. The fact is, I think all parties recognize that there's an issue and it has to be dealt with, and we're allowing the debate about the mechanism to get in the way of actually taking action. So I think we all would agree here that we need to take action.

Is conservation cheaper than production? With respect to energy demand in this country, it's growing significantly, and just as we need all sources of energy supply in order to address that demand, we also need to utilize not just supply methods but also conservation methods. So again, my message is that it's not one or the other; we need both approaches.

I think all of it can be summed up in your question of metrics. There's a real issue here in Canada about the ability to develop effective public policy without the necessary metrics that go behind it. At the federal level I'll cite an example. In 1995, under program review, Natural Resources Canada lost 52% of its budget. In a program review process several years later there was another significant cut. The ability to measure and analyse was lost as a result of this. I think that's an example of some capacity that needs to be added back into the system in order for it to be able to produce the data that we all need to judge what we should do and how effectively we are doing it.

11:55 a.m.

Dr. Robert Hornung President, Canadian Wind Energy Association, Energy Dialogue Group

I'll add a comment on Kyoto. Hans is correct to note that as the Energy Dialogue Group we do not have a position on Kyoto. I think it is important to note that the Energy Dialogue Group has, as a group, stressed the need to actually move forward on this issue. And I think all members of the group recognize that we all have a role to play.

At the end of the day, there are differing views among members with respect to the mix of potential solutions or the timelines, but I think we're working to try to find some common ground with respect to policy frameworks that we can all agree on that will enable us to move forward with a more sustainable energy system going forward.

11:55 a.m.

Murray Elston President and CEO, Canadian Nuclear Association, Energy Dialogue Group

I think it's pretty fair to say that each of us representing our industry, coming together on this, recognizes that we can play a role. Obviously, nuclear has an interesting role to play with respect to emissions, but I think the one thing that we haven't really chatted too much about, although we're getting there in hinting a little bit at it, is that we shouldn't be necessarily looking at our current mix of any of the generation types of technology, which Hans has identified, and advances in the technologies will probably make some gains for us. We will be looking I think more securely at competitiveness for things like hydrogen, for instance, as we move further into a higher level of cost associated with some of our fossils.

I think we tend to look too closely to today. If this committee can have a bit of a longer-term strategic orientation that helps us move into some of that transition, we will I think measure our progress on climate change in a bit of a different way than we tend to look at it today. Obviously, action, contribution, and transition are the three key areas.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Mr. Ouellet. Again, we'll try it for five minutes, but we have a tendency to go over on the first question so I'll let you do the same.

Then we'll have Mr. Bevington when these questions are completed.

Noon

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you for coming.

My question would be about the message an industry group like yours gives to the general public or to a committee like this, namely that you don't consider other energy too much, except as alternatives. Although there is a sun energy industry, a geothermal industry, and also a biomass energy industry, you don't include them. You see that they're small players and you don't want to bother with them. You call them alternatives.

In all your figures, we don't see those energies, and we know for climate change and other reasons that those energies are major energies. They're the ones that are going to come to last. You say somewhere that 83% of the energy comes from natural gas, oil, and coal. Yes, right now, but for how long? This you haven't mentioned. I would like to hear from you about that.

Don't you think it's a shortsighted view to think that regular energy will be the energy of tomorrow? You say that industry is prepared to step up. I'm sure you are, but still you leave those energies as alternatives. I don't think you'll do much for the future.

I'm very happy that you talk about energy efficiency. As some people said, we know now that it's cheaper to develop efficiency than to produce new energy. But if we only take geothermal energy, there is as much energy in geothermal as maybe there is in gas right now in Canada. I agree with you that government has to take a leading role to make a real energy framework, but when you come here and you don't mention those energies—even the passive solar energy.... I know why you don't talk about it, because it's not an industry, and it never will be, but it's an energy. It's a very important energy.

I would like to ask you one question for which I imagine you will have a good answer for me. As for the alternative energies, I'm not sure you will. You say that Canada is a leading exporter of gas. I don't know where I found that--yes, on your slide 20. What would be your viewpoint, then, on importing liquefied gas by boat from Russia, which is being prepared to be done in Canada, if we already are the second largest natural gas exporter? Do you see any rationale in this?

Nor do you mention stock-outs. Somewhere in your slides, you say that Canada’s energy future must be secured. Canada’s energy future, however, does not rely solely on sustainability, but also on sustainable development. The quality of life of future generations depends in large part on the energy industry. Nowhere in your text is there mention of the energy stock-outs concerned here.

There is also talk of overconsumption. But I did not see that anywhere in your text. I am not talking about energy efficiency, but about overconsumption. There is talk of all the rolling stock that overconsumes, of nighttime lighting. Canada, including Quebec, consumes more light at night than any other country in the whole world, even more than the U.S. There is no mention of the energy wasted in transit in pipelines or in electrical transmission lines, which should be improved, and little emphasis is placed on that extraordinary form of energy, namely geothermal energy.

When it does not mention that Canada has to reduce its unnecessary consumption of energy, the energy industry is not providing a complete picture of the situation.

12:05 p.m.

Chair, President and CEO, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

Thank you for your comments.

I will respond in English to be clear.

First of all, if you look on our page 2, amongst our members are the Canadian GeoExchange Coalition and Hydrogen & Fuel Cells Canada. We have these so-called alternate members; they're full members of the Energy Dialogue Group.

The only point we were making about solar, sun, biomass, etc., and the reason you don't see a large number on the chart, is that these represent less than 2% of total supply. It's not to comment on them in any way negatively.

As I mentioned, wind is the fastest growing technology. It was an “alternate” technology, in the sense of an alternate renewable technology, because our core renewable technology is large hydro, for which Canada is well-known—famous—and which represents close to 65% of our electricity system. Our major renewable is large hydro; we believe wind is the fastest growing.

Biomass is substantial. It tends to take place in industrial settings, where it's used as byproduct from forest products and activities, etc.

Do we think that biomass, for instance, or solar is in the near term going to replace the core technologies? No, we do not. Nor do we see anywhere in the world projections of that sort. We think, when we look at what the International Energy Agency is saying and what virtually every global think tank is saying about the energy sources over the next 20, 30, 40 years, whether we like it or not, we're still going to be in a world that's based around a heavy dependence on fossil fuels, with growing contributions from the renewable sector from sources such as wind, and from nuclear, but we will not see a massive transition to biomass or sun, given the cost points of those technologies and the land use implications of some of them.

So do we represent energy for tomorrow? Absolutely. We're committed to representing the views of any and all providers of those services, but realistically speaking we are not going to see a huge transition in our core technologies, in our view, over the next 15 to 20 years.

With respect to passive solar, sure, it's a very effective strategy. It should be part of the energy efficiency strategy. We're very strong supporters of changes to the building codes to facilitate the use of passive solar and other technologies. I think I've made the case that we believe energy efficiency is a strategic theme and that we should be engaged in and committed to it.

You asked a question about importing natural gas via LNG. Our view is that economics and markets determine which sources supply which loads. Given the relatively tight supply situation for natural gas in the near term, we see LNG as likely an important and growing contributor in North America, but equally we need to build our pipelines to the north, we need to access the gas reserves that exist, we need to take advantage of what is available in North America.

Playing only one card is probably dangerous, because nobody can predict when those projects will be delivered. That's why we need the regulatory efficiency and coordination we talk about. So we've taken, quite deliberately, a strategy that says we discriminate against absolutely no option. Every option should be in the basket, and the relative importance of those options within that basket of energy resources should be determined by market realities. That way, we've been able to be inclusive, and frankly, we think this creates the flexibility to get us past unanticipated problems that emerge, with specific solutions.

I'm afraid I had trouble with your last question because my translation device was not working, but I think some of my colleagues picked up on it. Perhaps I will punt that one to them and let them respond.

12:10 p.m.

Brian Maynard Vice-President, Stewardship and Public Affairs, Atlantic Canada, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers

Just before we do that, and to come back to the basic point, we see energy demand in this country growing by 1.5% annually. We see that forecast into the future for a significant period of time. That is new demand: people driving cars more, and having more televisions and computers in their homes. We are not even touching on the significant investment that has to go into the ground to refurbish units that generate electricity. We are not talking about new transmission lines, or anything else. There is a significant reinvestment potential, so the underlying point is that we need all sources of energy into the future.

You speak eloquently about geothermal, but we have not yet figured out a way to power a car with geothermal energy. It can provide space heating. It can provide heating in homes and buildings like this, but the beauty of oil is that it is portable. It allows us to fuel our planes, boats, trains, and automobiles. It has a very high energy content. It is very efficient and relatively cheap, in comparison to many other sources of energy.

It is our underlying principle that given the increase in demand worldwide and nationally, and given the need to replace significant sources of existing energy, all sources of energy will be absolutely critical into the future. It is not just this energy association, but worldwide we see the same situation.

That is why all energy components have come together as a group, including renewables and other sources.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. MacInnis.

12:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, Energy Dialogue Group

David MacInnis

On importation of LNG, there is a real opportunity there for Quebec. There are two proposals: Rabaska and Gros Cacouna. There's a proposal in New Brunswick and one in Nova Scotia. There are opportunities here for Canada. Some of that product will go to supply the increasing needs being generated by Canadians, but also by the U.S. There's an opportunity here on that front for Canada and Canadians.

Around your comment about too little emphasis on renewables and alternatives, there are really two questions here. The first question is whether there is a future for renewables and alternatives. I would emphatically say yes. That's why, for example, members of my association, the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, are buying into power generation projects in the nuclear, wind, and solar sectors. It's why some of my member companies have decided to partner up with fuel cell manufacturers and hydro companies. There's a need for a fully diversified mix of fuel supply, and they see the opportunity there.

The second question is, when does it get developed? That's the issue. Right now there's development under way, but save for wind and nuclear, for example, it's looking pretty far forward. I suggest that companies are making the investments in anticipation of a changing fuel source because they see opportunity there.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you very much, and thank you for the question.

Mr. Ouellet, I should also mention there will be a subsequent meeting on June 13, a week from today. We're inviting representatives from other alternative energy sources than those that have been discussed today. We have also asked the parliamentary liaison for the department to ask the officials who will appear to specifically comment on biomass and thermal. So bring your questions back.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I knew that, but it's never a good thing to separate industries like that. As long as they're separate, it will always be a very minor industry.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

All right. I think the point was well made.

Mr. Bevington, we'll try to start with five minutes.