Natural Resources Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

There is one.

[Chief Bill Williams]

Could you tell me the amount of money that they've set aside for wildfire protection?

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I don't have the number but it was several tens of millions of dollars, as I recall, for the component on wildfire protection and public safety because of the pine beetle damage.

[Chief Bill Williams]

Yes, the number that we're looking at is $1,000 per hectare. We have 135,000 hectares around our 109 communities that require protection. So that's why we have the number of $135 million. A rejigging of that number would probably be a better opportunity for our communities.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

You had said, probably rightly, that no money has come to the first nations for wildfire protection. So what I need to know is how much has been applied for under the criteria of the $200 million that's out there. Were those applications successful? Quite frankly, I would like to try to assist you in securing some of that funding, but I need to know how much was applied for and if it was approved or whether it's in the process or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Harris. Your time is up.

We go now to the second round. Mr. Tonks, you may proceed for up to five minutes.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Harris is going to be pleased, as is Ms. Bell, because I'm going to follow up on the same line of thinking, Mr. Chairman.

I'm encouraged, and I'm sure Chief Williams is encouraged.... The line of questioning is consequential, as Mr. Harris would know better than I, to the very, very serious issue that exists with the mountain pine beetle and the area of devastation that has been described. I have not been up there but I've certainly heard about it and I've seen some fly-over photographs. And the issue with respect to the province of Alberta now and its particular.... I think the committee should be encouraged that through Chief Williams, the initiative has been taken to coordinate first nations' responses to the mountain pine beetle. The line of questioning is an attempt to establish just what is available and how first nations access that, as part of a strategy.

I hope I'm not out of line on this, but I think, when we're putting our report together, the committee would like to take Chief William's testimony and build recommendations as we receive more information along the lines that Ms. Bell and Mr. Harris have questioned. I appreciate, on behalf of the committee, all of the presentations that have been made, from the mayors, Professor Asselin, and from the industry. It really reinforces what we've been told, and we're attempting to develop a strategic approach, not a one-off silo tactical approach. We're going to work on that. But I do think the committee is seized with the seriousness and the immediacy of a wildfire that could occur, with no firebreaks and on the scale that Chief Williams has noted.

Chief, if you could write a list or a program, or if you could tell us that through your organization there is a program of requests being made, that would be very helpful to the committee. Perhaps you would like to respond just for a moment, because I do feel that, further to the questions you've been asked, the researchers are going to be working closely with you and your organization. There's a very, very serious issue that needs immediate treatment.

Chief.

[Chief Bill Williams]

I thank you for your question. I will provide a complete list of all applications and/or requests from our communities to the committee here.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I think it would be important for the federal and provincial authorities to have some coordination to our recommendations.

I just have one short question for Mayor Scarrow. Mr. Mayor, you indicated that a reference group or task force had been created. You did go into a number of recommendations, but I don't think you were citing the recommendations that came out of your task force. Could you make that available to us?

[Jim Scarrow]

Certainly. I have a copy with me, and I will leave it for members of the committee.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Good.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay. You still have a minute and a half left, if you need it.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm sure that Mr. Boshcoff is up to the challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, Mr. Boshcoff, go ahead. You have a minute and a half.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

Professor Asselin, you talked about the worst crisis since the Depression for forest and single-industry communities, but you also talked about certified products. Of course, there are at least three sets of certification in the country. Do you have a particular position on the Forest Stewardship Council, which seems to be trumping the industry, the ISOs, and all these others that have been working towards a certification? Now, the rules have changed for them. In Ontario the government has endorsed FSC, and yet the province can't even deliver on it.

So may I have your comments on certification in general?

[Hugo Asselin]

If we seriously want to go into certification, we have to make sure it is an internationally recognized certification. FSC is the most widely recognized certification. It is also deemed the most critical,

the most difficult to obtain. I do not want to suggest that one certification is better than another or anything of that nature, but what I am trying to say is that we have to be serious in our approach. We all know, at this point, that it is possible to get conditional certification, which means without having fulfillled all of the conditions but by promising to fulfill them soon. One must therefore begin working to ensure that the other conditions are fulfilled. There is no point in having the strictest certification if, five years later, it is withdrawn because the objectives could not be achieved.

I would like to come back once again to what we were saying earlier about research and development, questions that we have not managed to find an answer to for the moment. We must hurry up and find the answers so that, during the next audit, certification will be maintained. I repeat that Canada is a world leader in terms of certified areas. This is a good thing and we must continue on this path. We must not see this as a limitation, but rather as an asset.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

That's very helpful. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Boshcoff.

Now we have Mr. Ouellet, for up to five minutes.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to congratulate you for having tackled really important problems in this time of crisis. It is in such times that we have to make significant changes, and almost all of you have said the same thing, that we have to use more wood and fibre in Canada, before trying to export it. This therefore mainly concerns the building industry.

Mr. Asselin, I would like you to give us suggestions so that we could tell the government what it can do to develop eco-energy. We talk a lot about renewable energy, of the importance it will have, and wood is part of that. Could you give us some advice as to the direction the government should take?

[Hugo Asselin]

Let me start by emphasizing that we have to adopt a holistic view of the forest looking at it as a whole which is made up of a number of resources, lumber being only one of them. Many of these resources could be used to support a community. There are millions of dollars worth of untapped resources in the forest, with a potential for future sustainable use. We must not ever forget that.

You have said that we should make a greater use of lumber here in Canada. I built my own house two years ago, and the local lumber that I used was expensive. Certified lumber is not cheap. Tax rebates to encourage the use of local Canadian or certified products would be a popular option. Consumers are ready. People have told me that they would be willing to buy these products, but sometimes the cost can be prohibitive, and a little financial help can go a long way.

Bioenergy is another interesting idea. However, as I said, there is no magic formula that will solve all of our problems. We need to find a number of solutions, and bioenergy is only one of them. It is only one option. We must be careful when we think that we might be able to use waste from the forest industry to generate energy. That is all well and good, but we can't start pillaging the forest and strip it of every last branch to make ethanol or granules, because we must not forget that the waste that is left behind after the trees are harvested does have an environmental role to play. In some areas, removing this waste might not cause any problems; elsewhere, there could be detrimental effects. We need to study this further in order to determine exactly how all of this might work. When it comes to bioenergy, the aim is to make the best use of our resources without going overboard.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

On that point, do you or do you not agree with Mr. Baribeault, who is a researcher with Hydro-Québec? He says that Quebec currently has 10 million tons of unused biomass, and that forestry would not be affected if we were to use it.

[Hugo Asselin]

Perhaps forestry would not be affected, but it could be harmful to the forest itself. Those are two different things. Even if millions of cubic metres were available, we should take care to make wise and prudent use of them, rather than plunge headlong and risk hitting another wall. Yes, that is one option, which brings me back to your approach which is based on meeting our needs first, and then taking care of everyone else if we have enough resources left over.

Personally, I would rather have 100 stable, long-term jobs that provide employees with a decent standard of living than 1,000 jobs that will disappear in two years when the town closes down.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You certainly make a very good case. I like your suggestion to provide tax relief on both highly-processed as well as basic materials such as wood beams. We could forgo the processing or sales taxes on any wood products that are made in Canada.

What do you think of that idea?

[Hugo Asselin]

I can't really say, since I am not an economist. And I don't know what the implications would be for NAFTA or other treaties that Canada has signed. We don't want to give the Americans anymore ammunitions than they already have—even though I'm not sure how much more they could do to us. We have to keep an eye on that. I have the feeling that there would be nothing to stop us from encouraging people to buy locally or to buy Canadian. Of course, priority should be given to high-value-added products, like the ones that are made in Kenora, rather than basic commodities, but when you come right down to it, why would we not do it for those products as well? When I was buying 2 X 4s to build my house, I tried to ensure that they had originated as closely as possible to my home and I looked for the certification seal. Those were my criteria.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Albert, you said that a refundable tax credit would help small companies to obtain their FSC certification. Would that be enough, or should we have some type of program to help people work the forests?