Evidence of meeting #14 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was efficiency.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Meier  Associate Director, Energy Efficiency Center at University of California, Davis, and Senior Scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, As an Individual
David Foster  Executive Director, Blue Green Alliance

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. We're here today pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) to continue our study on the contribution of integrated approaches for providing energy services in Canadian communities.

We have two witnesses today by video conference. The first, as an individual, is Alan Meier, the associate director of the Energy Efficiency Center at the University of California, Davis, and a senior scientist with the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. We also have David Foster, the executive director of the Blue Green Alliance, by video conference.

A point of order, Mr. Regan?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, I'm anxious to hear from our witnesses, but I received this morning, and I presume other members of the committee received, without any discussion, a notice about the meeting of the committee for Thursday afternoon in which the minister will be present. It's my view that this should not be a matter that is simply announced to us from the chair. Of course, as you know, the chair is the servant of the committee and not the other way around, and it seems to me that we should be deciding when we want the minister to come in the context of our discussions about our agenda. We should at least have some discussion about her availability. I find it hard to imagine that there's no Tuesday or Thursday in the month of May or June when she is not available to come. I think we should wait and we should have it after the month of April.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

The minister is coming on a Thursday.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Sorry, let me put it a different way: no other Thursday or Tuesday in the month of May or June.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay. Mr. Regan, as I understood it, when we had our discussion on that, the members of this committee agreed that whenever the minister was available, we would set that meeting up and go ahead with it. That is my understanding--

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

It's not my recollection, but I'm certainly interested to hear from other colleagues.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

And I hope this conversation won't take too long. We do have two witnesses.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

For example, I think we're waiting for a report on the nuclear safety regulator that I think is coming down in the near future, and I'm sure the minister would want to make sure that her presence here is after that, so she can answer questions about that report.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay. You know, the meeting is scheduled.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, it was scheduled by you without any discussion with anyone else, as far as I can tell--perhaps with the minister's office, but other than that I'm not aware of anyone on this committee taking part in that discussion.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We can go back to the discussions we had, but it is my memory that in fact this committee did decide that whenever the minister was available I would arrange the meeting based on that.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Perhaps the clerk could provide the minutes to that effect in due course, because that's not my recollection.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I'm almost certain that's the way it occurred. If we could have the blues of those minutes--

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Besides, we have a meeting that day already, as you know. That has been moved to the morning, that's fine. You have chosen to have it in the morning, a two-hour meeting. Members have lots of things to do, and I'm sure the minister does too--I recognize that. But it seems to me that this is the sort of thing we work out as a committee and don't have handed to us arbitrarily.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I hear your concern, Mr. Regan. Again, it's no use restating what I believe was decided by this committee before. I certainly understand that as chair I work on behalf of all members of the committee, and I believe I have worked in accordance with instructions that were given to me and to this committee by all of its members before. That's my understanding. We can find the minutes of that in camera meeting where that decision was made, or maybe it wasn't in camera. It may have been made after debate on a motion. We'll take it from there.

Yes, Mr. Anderson.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Regan has served close enough to the ministry to know that the ministers come when they can. We had talked at this committee about her coming to deal with the main estimates and some other issues. She informed me that she could come on Thursday. We could have communicated that better--I apologize for that--but the reality was that she has Thursday open and is willing to come on Thursday. If the committee doesn't want her to come, I'd be glad to carry that back to her as well. But I think we've previously discussed the fact that she needed to come for main estimates. We were trying to find a time for her. We're having a meeting in the morning and there was some time available in the afternoon, so the offer was made to come on Thursday.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

We have witnesses waiting here. The only decision we can talk about now, and let us make it very quickly, is whether you want the minister to come on Thursday or not. I'm going to ask for a show of hands on that.

Those who don't want the minister to come on Thursday as scheduled.... Five. Those who want the minister to come on Thursday.... Five. It's an even count. As chair, I will carry through with the plans that this committee had. We'll have the minister come on Thursday for one hour at 3:30 p.m., our regularly scheduled time. Thank you.

Now, to the witnesses. We will have the presentations in the order listed on the agenda.

Mr. Meier, you can go ahead with your presentation for up to ten minutes. Thank you very much. Please go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Alan Meier Associate Director, Energy Efficiency Center at University of California, Davis, and Senior Scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, As an Individual

Thank you very much for inviting me to testify. I'm honoured, and I hope that my remarks are useful to your committee and to Canada.

I think it would be useful for you to understand my personal background first. I am currently working at the University of California, Davis, where I teach energy efficiency. I am creating several projects in energy efficiency research. I'm also a senior scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

My other responsibilities include being editor-in-chief of a research journal called Energy and Buildings. I founded a magazine called Home Energy, which is designed for the practitioners. And I recently returned from a three-year appointment at the International Energy Agency in Paris, where I served as the senior adviser on energy efficiency.

For the past 30 years, my research and activities have focused on understanding how people use energy. I sometimes call that the “other side of the metre”. Most people focus on how energy is supplied. I'm mostly concerned about how energy is consumed, or transformed into useful services. I find that understanding consumption is critical to developing realistic technologies and policies to conserve energy.

Originally my research focused on energy-efficient buildings. Then I began to shift to appliances. More recently, I'm learning a little bit more about transportation. At the International Energy Agency, I focused on research into market barriers to energy efficiency, and monitored developments related to efficiency throughout the world, including Canada. Over the years, I have helped develop many energy efficiency technologies, methods, and policies. I hope today to discuss a few of the insights I have.

I need to apologize in advance that I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Canada. I think you should feel free to interrupt me if my line of discussion appears to be inappropriate to Canada or to your general lines of inquiry.

First I'd like to introduce what I call the “demand-side perspective”. From there I'll give you some observations about integrated planning and reducing energy use in communities.

About 30 years ago, we had a kind of curious asymmetry regarding energy. While the experts knew almost precisely, or with considerable precision, where our energy came from, they had little or no sense of how the energy was used. That is, nobody knew how much energy went to lighting, water heating, televisions, furnace fans, or air compressors in factories.

So the consumption side of the energy equation was a black box, sometimes affected by fluctuations in the weather or the season, but basically something that could not be changed. That absence of information has had a tremendous influence on the choice of energy policies over the last 30 years.

I want to give you some examples of the demand side perspective. Let's consider the demand and supply for electricity. Imagine two kinds of pie charts right in front of me. One would show the supply of electricity and the sources, where the electricity came from. That's coal, hydro, oil, or gas. In the case of Canada, I think the biggest slice is hydroelectric. Almost half of your electricity comes from hydroelectric sources. For the United States, though, only about one-tenth of our electricity comes from hydroelectric.

By coincidence, in the United States this one-tenth fraction of the hydro supply exactly matches the electricity consumed by our refrigerators. So if we had another pie that just showed where all our electricity went, the slice for our refrigerators would be exactly the same size, in the United States, as the slice for hydroelectric.

With that kind of information, we might want to consider the alternatives to building more dams or building more efficient refrigerators. If the electricity use of refrigerators could be halved, which would be more attractive, building more dams or reducing the electricity consumption of refrigerators?

Here's another example that is perhaps more surprising. It's the case of electric motors. Few people realize that about half of Canada's electricity is consumed by electric motors. These motors are everywhere once you start looking for them. They are in the refrigerators. They're in the furnace fans and air conditioners. They're in the compressed air systems that you'll find in many factories. They power pumps and disk drives and house fans and all sorts of things. Indeed, my guess is that motors consume as much electricity as generated by all the non-hydro sources in Canada. So basically if you think about these two pies of supply and consumption, you have all your non-hydro sources supplying electricity, and all of that is consumed by electric motors.

If you want to reduce electricity consumption and carbon emissions in Canada, then we need to address the motors and the services that those motors provide.

Motor applications are complex and typically require professional attention, but the potential savings are huge. There was a well-regarded study in Manitoba recently where they found that by simply replacing the electric motors in furnace fans in homes, they could reduce the electricity consumption of those furnace fans by 70%. This example is important not only because of that 70% reduction for the motors, but that translated into a 25% reduction in the electricity use of that home during the winter. It is a significant kind of saving that could occur. You don't realize these potentials until you begin to understand how the electricity is used in the demand side.

Another example of understanding the demand side is the case of automobiles. Again, automobiles are complex technologies, but nevertheless we know that about 20% of the fuel consumed by an automobile is used to overcome the rolling resistance of the tires. This is the energy--the rolling resistance--which is dissipated by the continuous flexing and re-forming of the tires that spin around. At least in the United States, for comparison, we know that that oil consumption, that 20% of the fuel consumption in cars, equals all the oil we import from Saudi Arabia.

We have recently found that there are some technical improvements possible in tires that can dramatically reduce a tire's rolling resistance, and that can, in some cases, reduce it by as much as 50%. That's without sacrificing the grip or the tread wear. So from a policy perspective we have to begin asking questions on whether the country should invest more in increasing oil imports or whether it should try to reduce the rolling resistance of tires. Again, we can only make these kinds of decisions, these kinds of balances and comparisons, when we have information on both sides of this energy equation.

I understand that one of your goals is to understand how best to integrate the energy policies. I believe that the effective integrated energy planning can occur only when both supply and consumption are taken into account. This applies to many aspects of urban planning where energy is a major input, such as transportation. Here too you have to be careful that you don't take either supply or demand as a kind of black box, because both sides of these equations, even if it's transportation, can be responsive to policies.

Recently, for example, I've been following the city of Toyama in Japan. This is a city of about half a million on the west coast of Japan that has been suffering economic decline as the young people have left to go to Tokyo and Osaka. What is left are the old people, and it is getting more and more difficult to deliver the services to these old people. At the same time, there's a lot of pressure to reduce energy consumption and carbon emissions in that city. The city is actually trying to reshape itself and align itself in a way that the key city and social services are on corridors. By getting both the services and the people who need those services on these corridors, they can reduce the cost of delivering those services and keep the city more efficient.

This whole process is under way. It's not going to happen overnight. They expect it's going to take at least a decade to make a significant difference. But they can see that this is the only way they're going to be able to provide those services and allow the city to economically survive in their new demographic situation and with new energy realities at the same time.

Toyama City knows that besides reducing the cost of delivering services, this new compact design will save energy and reduce carbon emissions. You might consider this is a situation where Toyama City is making a virtue out of necessity, but the fact is it's an integration that seems to be successful.

Before concluding, I'd like to stress one important difference between energy supply and conservation policies that I think has everything to do with integrated policies in towns and cities.

Most energy supply technologies—coal, nuclear, hydro, whatever, even some types of solar—are easy to point at when the facilities are finished. And they are relatively straightforward to evaluate in terms of knowing when they're generating electricity, or there's oil coming out of the pipeline, or whatever it is. But on the other hand, these kinds of projects are capital-intensive. And they create few jobs, which are not usually in the communities; they're a long way away from where people live. When they're poorly planned, they fail in huge, expensive ways.

In contrast, most energy efficiency policies are extremely diffuse activities. Sometimes they're touching every single home or store or factory in order to make them happen. But at the same time, their benefits are very difficult to evaluate. You have something that is causing energy savings, and you cannot measure energy savings like you can measure output because you're measuring a difference in energy use. So it's not straightforward. You don't have as much confidence that those savings actually happen unless you do careful evaluation. But on the other hand, energy efficiency investments are labour-intensive. The jobs are in the communities. They may be down the street or next door, so that means these are local jobs. I think if the policies are designed correctly, these jobs will persist.

Thank you for your attention. I would be happy to answer your questions about my remarks, or other topics.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Meier.

We will hear from the second witness, and then we'll go to questions. Members can question either or both of you.

Thank you very much for that big-picture look at things.

We'll go now to our second witness, from the Blue Green Alliance, David Foster, executive director, for about ten minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

David Foster Executive Director, Blue Green Alliance

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

My name is David Foster. Currently I serve as executive director of the Blue Green Alliance, a partnership of four unions and two national environmental organizations with over six million members, touching virtually every community in the United States.

The Blue Green Alliance is specifically made up of the United Steelworkers, the Sierra Club, the Laborers’ International Union of North America, the Natural Resources Defense Council, the Communications Workers of America, and the Service Employees International Union. The collaboration of labour unions and environmental organizations is based on our common goal to build a clean energy economy, an economy that both creates good jobs and combats global warming.

The Blue Green Alliance has become one of our country's leading advocates for global warming solutions and good green jobs. I'm especially pleased to be given the opportunity to testify before the Standing Committee on Natural Resources on this same critical set of issues in Canada.

Before serving in my current capacity, I spent 31 years as a member of the United Steelworkers, and for 16 years served on the union's international executive board as the director of district 11, a 13-state region based here in Minnesota.

Several weeks ago, in response to the deepening economic and climate crises, the Blue Green Alliance put forward a policy statement on climate change. This was the first time a climate change policy statement came from both unions and environmental organizations. For some of our partners, it was their very first public statement on climate change.

This policy statement stressed the importance of including targets that rely on the best scientific evidence and on an economy-wide cap and trade system that contains mechanisms to prevent job loss in globally competitive, energy-intensive industries. Above all, the statement made clear that comprehensive climate change legislation should focus on the creation and retention of millions of new and existing family-sustaining green jobs, and should finance the transition to a clean energy economy.

I've submitted a copy of our policy statement for the record. I hope that got to you along with my testimony here.

The Blue Green Alliance strongly believes our U.S. Congress must act this year and pass responsible climate change legislation that will rapidly put Americans back to work with millions of jobs building the clean energy economy and reducing global warming emissions to a level necessary to avoid the worst effects of climate change. Our partner organizations agree that no course of action would be more destructive than to continue the energy policies that drove oil prices to $140 a barrel in 2008, contributed to skyrocketing food prices and global food shortages, and resulted in unsustainable trade imbalances.

Solving global warming will not be the economic calamity that some are predicting. Done right, the transition to a green economy will be the most important economic development tool of the 21st century. At the heart of this transition is the creation of a new energy system based on renewables and distributive generation. Some of the most notable examples of this transition exist in my own state.

In the neighbouring city of St. Paul, Minnesota, District Energy St. Paul produces, at its combined heat and power plant, 25 megawatts of electricity and 65 megawatts of thermal energy for its central city customers, burning wood chips from parks and other biomass, and providing steam for heating and cooling needs of much of downtown St. Paul.

In partnership with the local economic development agency, the St. Paul Port Authority, and a private recycling paper mill, District Energy has also embarked on an ambitious plan to convert the Rock-Tenn paper mill to a clean energy source, burning biogas from an anaerobic digester that converts waste residue from a neighbouring ethanol plant into renewable fuel. This project is envisioned as a key building block in creating a green corridor that connects Minneapolis and St. Paul through the delivery of clean energy.

In rural Minnesota, another renewable energy project known as CBED, or community-based economic development, provides a ready market for locally owned and developed wind-generated electricity. Minnesota has one of the country's most aggressive renewable electricity standards, requiring that 25% of electricity consumed in the state comes from renewable resources by 2025.

As a result of this policy, significant investment is taking place in the western portion of the state. CBED requires local utilities to purchase the output of individual wind turbine projects from local farmers, thus making it economically feasible for small farmers to own, operate, and profit from the production of renewable energy. The State of Minnesota estimates that family farm income could be supplemented by as much as $100,000 a year from these projects once initial capital investment is repaid.

These two local stories demonstrate what I hope is the potential of the clean energy economy. And they give us a clear sense of the important role that government can play.

First, government must give clear signals to markets on the future direction of energy prices. Strong cap-and-trade legislation that puts a long-term price on carbon, combined with a clear regulatory framework like renewable electricity standards and energy efficiency standards, provides the tools that investors need to know where the market is going. Our experience in the U.S., with some 28 state-based renewable electricity standards, shows the strength of influencing markets to create jobs and investments in clean energy.

Second, government needs to play a stronger role in solving transmission challenges that have resulted in a transmission patchwork built around moving energy inefficiently from large base-load plants to consumers. Programs like CBED in Minnesota or feed-in tariffs in Germany have shown the power of creating economic development tools that can be put in the hands of small producers or consumers. In Germany the regulatory framework and markets created by feed-in tariffs have created a solar industry that today employs 240,000 Germans in one of the cloudier countries in the world.

In the U.S. this week we will have an important milestone in the effort to pass federal climate change legislation. The Waxman-Markey bill will be heard in a series of public hearings before our energy and commerce committee. We were pleased to see many of the Blue Green Alliance principles in their draft climate change legislation. We think the draft legislation is a step in the right direction to solving climate change and creating jobs for the economic recovery.

The creation and retention of these millions of new and existing family-sustaining green jobs, particularly in manufacturing and construction, must be a top priority of climate change legislation. The recent American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 took the first step in that direction with a meaningful down payment on investments in the green economy. Approximately $120 billion of its investments were directed toward building the green economy and its infrastructure. Within days of passage we started seeing anecdotal evidence of its benefits when over 180 workers were recalled by the Andersen Corporation in Bayport, Minnesota, which makes energy-efficient windows. But this down payment could be wasted if we don’t make all the next installments in the clean energy economy at the scale necessary to convert our country to renewable energy.

The Blue Green Alliance was especially pleased to see the draft legislation require an increasing percentage of electricity sold by utilities to come from renewable sources, reaching 25% by 2025. Creating a regulatory framework that supports renewable energy, energy efficiency, and new transmission provide important market signals that will provide private investment at the scale necessary to put millions more Americans back to work.

A study released in 2006 by our organization and the renewable energy policy project of component manufacturing, based on a 10-year effort, found that 850,000 jobs would be created with $160 billion of investments in manufacturing. Economic models for my state showed that a 15% renewable electricity standard would generate over 18,000 jobs in component manufacturing. As I mentioned, my home state currently has a 25% renewable electricity standard, and as a result is home to the nation’s two largest construction companies specializing in wind farm installation.

In the interests of time, I will skip over some of my written testimony and hope that can be shared with other members of the committee.

In conclusion, I want to say simply that global warming is already destroying the livelihoods of workers everywhere. For example, thousands of steelworkers who used to make aluminum in the Pacific Northwest have lost their jobs in the U.S. because 15 years of declining snowfall in the Cascade Mountains meant less water in reservoirs and higher-cost electricity from the mightly dams that Henry Kaiser built 60 years ago. Seven smelters closed because they were unable to afford the higher costs of electricity. These lost jobs are a grim testament to why we can't wait to deal with climate change.

Failure to act will have severe economic consequences. In Nairobi, where last month I spoke to the United Nations Environment Programme's biennial ministerial forum, global warming isn't just about lost jobs. It's about starvation and mass migration. What little hope countries like Kenya or others in the developing world have of climbing the development ladder out of extreme poverty and into the ranks of the so-called emerging economies is evaporating as surely as the deserts of Darfur are expanding. That's the price of failing to act on global warming.

Before us are critical choices and decisions. Will we build the clean energy economy and put North America's factory and construction workers back in their jobs? Will we advocate a new development model for the third world that emphasizes consumption in their economies instead of unsustainable trade deficits in ours? Will we look back a year from now and say that we stood up for our countries, our climate, and all humanity when it mattered?

All of our choices are among those that will decide which path we go down. The Blue Green Alliance, its partner organizations, and its sister organization, Blue Green Canada, look forward to working with members of your committee as you continue to work on this critical issue.

Thank you very much.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Foster, for your presentation.

Mr. Foster and Mr. Meier, we will now go to questioning. Some questions will be directed to one of you, some to both of you. If you could listen for that and if you could indicate if you'd like to answer the question, I'll be watching for that and will introduce one of you first and then the other for the questions that go to both.

We'll start the questioning with seven minutes for the official opposition, the Liberal Party, starting with Mr. Tonks, and if Mr. Tonks leaves some time, we'll have Mr. Regan.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Meier and Mr. Foster, thank you very much for your overview.

The committee has been attempting to look at integrated energy systems as part of that future that will work, as opposed to the future that won't work if we just keep doing the things that we are doing.

My first question is to Dr. Meier. You talk about Toyama City, Dr. Meier, in terms of, I take it, its change in urban planning. You talked about what I take to be a more sustainable urban plan that uses its resources in a more productive way. Can you give us any other examples, from your experience, of countries or cities that in fact have seen the light and are looking at the manner in which they grow in terms of looking at a more sustainable approach and using integrated energy systems for transportation to achieve that kind of an objective?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Dr. Meier.

4:05 p.m.

Associate Director, Energy Efficiency Center at University of California, Davis, and Senior Scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, As an Individual

Dr. Alan Meier

Thank you for that question, Mr. Tonks.

I don't know immediately about transportation, but maybe I could mention another region that I am observing, I guess, from a distance, and that is the province of Upper Austria. This area also suffered from an economic depression 20 years ago as a lot of their heavy industry declined and their light industry, which was furniture building, also declined, and their forestry industry declined.

Then some clever person realized they could take some of the boiler-making capacity, use some of the old forests that no longer made good furniture wood, put them together with some chip-making facilities, and they started the wood chip industry and you have these wood chip or wood pellet stoves and so on. All of this came from Upper Austria.

It's been fascinating to watch how they've integrated the collection of the wood, which is second-growth and low-quality wood, with the former boilermakers to make the new wood chip furnaces, what we call pellet stoves.

Then they began to realize that was only half of the story. They had to deal with the problem of making the homes and the buildings more energy efficient to begin with. So they became one of the most aggressive--and I don't want to use the word “aggressive” in a bad sense, but in a positive sense--promoters of energy efficiency combined with renewables. So in the past, whereas almost all of Austria's homes outside of the major urban areas relied on fuel oil for heating, now it's down to about zero, because they've managed to make a complete transition to these pellet stoves for water heating and space heating.

Probably if I search my mind I'll come up with some ideas on transportation, but I thought that would be a good starting point.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Thank you for that, Dr. Meier.

As a follow-up question to that, are you aware of any economic models that would be convincing, in terms of the development industry when it approaches a rather large brownfield redevelopment, that would look at geothermal or solar or alternative energy packages, if you will, for that development?

I guess my question is twofold. Are you aware of any economic modelling that would illustrate that there is a return that would convince the developer that in the longer term, the best first course of action would be to implement new technologies, as opposed to just taking the traditional approach, which is interfacing with the existing electrical grid and drawing power toward that redevelopment?