Evidence of meeting #37 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aecl.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tom Wallace  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Serge Dupont  Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources
David McCauley  Director, Uranium and Radioactive Waste Division, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome. It's good to be back here at our Monday committee meeting.

We have with us today the Minister of Natural Resources. She will be here for two 45-minute segments, the first dealing with the state of the nuclear industry in Canada and abroad, which of course is the issue we've been dealing with at this committee for the past several meetings.

In the second part of the meeting, the minister will be dealing with Bill C-20, the bill we've had before this committee before. It is an act respecting civil liability and compensation for damage in case of a nuclear incident.

A point of order, Mr. Regan.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, may I presume that the intention is for the minister to make two separate statements? I would have thought that one at the beginning would not use up as much of the committee's time. We're anxious to hear from her, obviously, and that's fine. But normally ministers come and have an allotted time for speaking; they don't have double that. Hopefully, she will take only as much time as she needs, and not very much, so we can get to discussion and questions and answers. But if she is taking up double the normal time, that would be a concern.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Regan, we'll go ahead with the agenda as it is written here. I did mention this at the last meeting.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, you did not indicate that the minister would be speaking twice.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Order, please, Mr. Regan.

We will have the minister present for up to 10 minutes for the first 45-minute segment and present again on the bill itself for 10 minutes. It seems appropriate that the meeting be conducted that way.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

I challenge the chair. I challenge your decision on this, Mr. Chairman.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Regan has challenged the ruling of the chair, I guess, so I--

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I have to deal with this one first, Mr. Anderson.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Well, we need a point of clarification. What is he challenging? Is he challenging you or the agenda of the meeting? What is it he's challenging? Your comments? This is ridiculous.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Regan, I think we do need some clarification on that. Exactly what are you challenging?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, you were about to ask for a vote. It must be clear to you already. You must have had this discussion.... But the point I was making is that I have challenged your decision to have the minister speak twice rather than once, which is the normal fashion for when a minister visits.

I think that's clear already to you and that's why you were about to ask for the question as the rules provide.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

So the question is that the ruling of the chair be sustained, and we'll go to a vote on that question.

Mr. Anderson.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Chair, I'd like to be clear about what we're voting on here. The ruling of the chair is simply to affirm the order of the meeting. In order to change the order of the meeting...I understand it takes unanimous consent to change the agenda. Are we just voting on your comments now and then we'll do something more? I don't know if this is because the cameras are on--Mr. Regan seems to do this regularly--but anyway, it's a little bit annoying right now. He never came and talked to us ahead of time. He never raised the issue. The agenda went out as it is and as it is being presented, and I'm not sure what his reasons are for doing this.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, Mr. Anderson, I think, all that s accurate. He has indicated that he is challenging the agenda, my decision to have the agenda broken into two parts, having the minister present at the first of each part.

I'll go directly to the vote. The clerk will read the names and you can each announce your position on sustaining the decision of the chair.

(Ruling of the chair sustained)

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

The decision of the chair has been sustained. Now let's get on with the business of the meeting.

There's one other thing I would like to say before we go to questions. As you know, traditionally at these committee meetings, when the minister is before the committee, there is a wide range of latitude in the questions being asked, as long as they deal with the responsibility of the minister and the business that is properly before this committee. In this case it's the committee on natural resources. I'll let you think about that as the minister makes her presentation.

Minister, welcome. Thank you very much for being here with your people.

Please go ahead for up to 10 minutes. I thank you very much for making yourself available. I know with your schedule it was very difficult to come so quickly. We do appreciate it. I know you take the business of the committee very seriously. That's why you're here, that's why you're going to make your presentations, and that's why you're going to answer the questions.

Go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Halton Ontario

Conservative

Lisa Raitt ConservativeMinister of Natural Resources

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the time of the committee.

Let me start by thanking the committee for the opportunity to be here to talk about the state of the nuclear industry here in Canada. I do appreciate the value of the work the committee has undertaken on nuclear issues, particularly in the past number of weeks.

The industry, as you know, is very important to the country and it's something we do well. We have a strong and proud history in the nuclear field, and we've been technological pioneers within the industry for decades, literally since the infancy of the nuclear era.

The nuclear industry and its place in our society today is I think perhaps often underestimated, and it's improperly associated with some negative connotations. The reality is that the nuclear industry employs more than 30,000 Canadians, and many of these jobs are highly skilled and high-paying employment opportunities. About 15% of Canada's electricity, and fully half of Ontario's, comes from nuclear power. The industry as a whole has an annual power output valued at approximately $6 billion.

With nuclear power set to play an increasingly important role in balancing the need for power with a desire to reduce greenhouse gas emissions not just here at home but around the world, this industry clearly has tremendous opportunity for growth in the coming years and decades. The Canadian industry needs to be positioned to take advantage of these global opportunities.

I recently met with my international counterparts at the International Energy Agency ministerial meeting in Paris. One of the key priorities that many of the energy ministers highlighted was the need to continue allowing, as well as promoting, nuclear power into the global energy mix. And indeed, this past summer that was part of the G-8 communiqué.

Nobu Tanaka, who is the executive director of the IEA, has advised that to achieve the greenhouse gas reduction goals, 32 nuclear power plants will need to be built every year between now and 2050.

The Government of Canada has a critical role in fostering the conditions for this industry to be able to take full advantage of those opportunities and for the safe, secure, and environmentally sound development of the nuclear industry. So we have set out our policy, based on three clear objectives. First, meet Canada's clean energy needs economically, safely, and reliably; second, maximize return on Canada's already great investment in nuclear energy; and third, position our nuclear industry for growth in both the domestic and the global market.

We have been acting on these objectives to deliver results for Canadians. We've extended the funding for both AECL and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission to carry out their mandates. We brought in Bill C-20, which was referred to committee in June of this year and which is today to be considered by this committee and which will be further studied in the coming weeks.

Bill C-20 has been drafted to modernize the framework for nuclear liability. We've also made the decisions that needed to be made to advance the framework for managing nuclear waste. We have a program under way to begin the cleanup of nuclear legacy liabilities at Chalk River. And the Port Hope area initiative has recently received a five-year licence from the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission to move forward on the design of the Port Hope project.

As you know, this government has endorsed the adaptive phased management approach recommended by the Nuclear Waste Management Organization for dealing with nuclear fuel waste. A consultation process designed to identify a willing host community has commenced and is expected to continue for several years under government oversight in accordance with the Nuclear Fuel Waste Act.

These are all necessary actions that are vitally important to bolstering and building public confidence in what is a very important industry for Canada and for Canadian workers.

So there's a great deal of action and progress under way in all things nuclear in the country, but I think there are two clear priority areas where we all want to see some concrete progress in the coming months and years. And while I'm going to keep my comments brief today, I want to talk about these two priority areas: isotope production and the restructuring of AECL.

On isotopes, due to the comprehensive work this committee has already undertaken on behalf of all Canadians, more specifically by focusing your attention on the issue of the supply of medical isotopes, you have performed an important service for Canadians.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to reiterate my personal thanks and those of the government to the medical community for their tremendous work to ensure we have been able to cope with the supply issues of recent months.

I have been clear that going forward, AECL's top priority must be the NRU's return to service as expeditiously and safely as possible. AECL officials continue to inform the Canadian public that they believe the NRU reactor will return to service in the first quarter of 2010. I've been meeting weekly with the CEO and chair of AECL to hold them accountable to the schedule. AECL, at the end of the day, is accountable to the taxpayers of Canada, and we shall continue to insist that AECL meets the expectations of all Canadians.

My department and I have also been taking a leadership role in mobilizing international collaboration to maximize the global isotope supply, and we will continue to do this. We shall continue to consider the medium- and long-term options for isotope production as well. These considerations and decisions will be vital to our formulating plans and policies for the coming years.

Turning to AECL restructuring, the second priority, it will begin to take clearer shape as the review team continues to work through the many submissions received. The review team will assist us in paving the path forward. I am confident in our ability to make the necessary steps to strengthen Canada's nuclear industry and put us in a better position to access business and construction opportunities, both at home and abroad.

My special advisor, Serge Dupont, is here today. He went into detail earlier this month as to why we are intent upon restructuring AECL, so I'll try not to be too repetitive.

In short, AECL's structure and its business model need to change, and AECL needs to be in a position to have access to new business and investment partners if it's going to be truly competitive on a global scale. If we're going to protect, and hopefully grow, tens of thousands of jobs, AECL needs to be restructured in a thoughtful and considered fashion. It also needs to change if we are going to protect the taxpayer by bringing in risk capital up front to share some of the risks while increasing the potential for success. As it stands today, the Canadian taxpayer shoulders both the front-end investment costs and the downside risks of the business. This can be a particularly heavy load to bear, and we've seen an example of this in the first-of-a-kind refurbishment projects.

We are working to position the Canadian nuclear industry to retain and create skilled jobs. We recognize and value the contributions the hard-working employees in this industry are making to nuclear science, to technology, to our economy, and to our international reputation as a world leader and a technological pioneer.

Without a doubt, the nuclear industry's employees, the engineers and scientists, are world class. We as a government are very thankful for these contributions, and we need to highlight the employees' successes and the expertise on the world stage. Quite frankly, some of the world's biggest and brightest thinkers in the nuclear industry live and work here in Canada. Our government is acting now to ensure that these highly skilled employees will have every opportunity to actively participate in high-value projects, designing, building, and servicing nuclear energy technology in Canada and abroad.

Similarly, we need to act to improve AECL's R and D activities. The Chalk River labs and the company's R and D infrastructure as a whole need to be part of a culture that promotes innovation and excellence, feeding the industry at large, not just a reactor business. We need to be looking at new models of management. A government-owned, company-operated structure, for example, is one alternative possibility that we're taking a serious look at.

On that note, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to end my remarks simply by saying that I am committed and this government is committed to seeing the nuclear industry in Canada overcome some serious challenges to become a stronger, better, and more successful industry than ever. This is an industry that, given the conditions to grow properly, has a very, very bright future. It's a source of growth, innovation, jobs, and clean energy, things we all agree are critical to this country's future success.

Thank you very much, and I'd be happy to take questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you for that very informative presentation, Minister Raitt. We do appreciate your giving us that as a starting point for our discussion here this afternoon.

We'll now go directly to the questioning, beginning with Mr. Regan for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Minister. It's always good to have you here.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

It's good to be here.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

The government received the report from the National Bank in August of last year, and I gather you've had the report from Rothschild for several months now. We've been hearing from people in the industry that the result of the uncertainty about AECL's future, which we've seen since May when you announced the intention to do something with AECL and which is still not clear, is making it very hard for this to go forward.

For instance, we've seen with the Government of Ontario's process for replacing the Darlington reactors, to build reactors there, that things are up in the air. They're waiting to see what the Government of Canada is going to do. We've heard from the industry that this is causing great concern and that damage is being done to the industry. How much more damage will be done before a decision is made? How much more will the industry suffer as result of this delay?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

Thank you very much for your question.

I'll just give you a chronology of the timing of where we are in the process, because I think it's really important. One of the things that I said in my remarks very clearly is that this is a comprehensive, complex area. Quite frankly, it's an area that has suffered from great inaction over the past 15 years. As a result, we do have a lot of cleaning up to do.

In 2007, it was announced by this government that there would be a review of AECL. Natural Resources Canada set up a review team, and National Bank Financial was engaged to provide financial advice to that review team. Now, I bring that up only because that review team produced a summary report, which was made publicly available in May of 2009. We announced on May 28 of that year that the review was complete, and what that review was anticipated to do was to set the framework with respect to where we would be going. The decision was taken and it was told to the general public that we would be moving forward with a restructuring of the corporation.

That same AECL review team, inherent in Natural Resources Canada, is proceeding; it's looking for feedback from the market and from stakeholders. I'll come back to talk about the uncertainty issues after I just give you the chronology.

Where we are right now is in that portion of determining what the restructuring plan will look like. For a restructuring to happen, of course Parliament will have to weigh in on it, and at that point in time, there will be a matter before Parliament to decide.

On the uncertainty issues, there are two things. On the Government of Ontario, the most beneficial thing that could have happened for AECL and for the restructuring, quite frankly, was that the Ontario process not be suspended. But it was suspended in June of this year for a number of reasons, one of which they indicated they wanted to understand where the government was going on restructuring. As a result, we have been keeping in close contact with the Government of Ontario and letting them know what we were doing and whom we were speaking to--

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Madam Minister, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think you know I only have seven minutes, and I--

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

I'm at the uncertainty part.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Well, I was looking for the question of damage. I recognize it takes some time to answer, but I think I've been very patient. So if you could--