Evidence of meeting #75 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeff Labonté  Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
John Foran  Director, Oil and Gas Policy and Regulatory Affairs Division, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Carolyn Knobel  Director, Multi-Industry Sector and Virtual Practices Division, Global Business Opportunities Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Dave McCauley  Director, Uranium and Radioactive Waste Division, Electricity Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Jonathan Will  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone.

As the committee members and, I'm sure, the departmental officials know, we're starting a new study today. Before I turn to our first group of witnesses—the departmental officials—I just want to explain very briefly what our study is about.

We'll be dealing with market diversification in the energy sector. The committee, through discussions, decided to do that in three sections: export market diversification, product diversification, and diversification of energy supply sources. I'll give a brief explanation of what we're talking about.

Under the first section, we'll be looking at export market diversification: basically ensuring that Canadian energy products are exported to more than one country. We've seen the difficulties that have become apparent from depending on the United States, for example, as virtually the only export market for our oil. We've seen the depression in prices because of that, whereas if we had other markets, clearly we wouldn't be subject to the discount we're getting—certainly for Canadian bitumen and oil.

Product diversification refers to the promotion of a wide range of Canadian energy commodities. This used to be mostly commodities, but now of course this also includes expertise and energy technologies, both domestically and internationally. This may include diversifying Canada's oil portfolio by adding value to raw products by upgrading and refining, as well as other things that I'm sure will come out through the study.

It may also include enhancing export opportunities for Canada's renewable energy. We've had a lot of discussion at previous committee meetings on renewable energy, clean technology, and energy expertise. Again, we're not just looking at exporting commodities any more; it's the expertise and the innovation around that as well.

The third area we'll look at is diversification of energy supply sources. Diversification of energy supply sources refers to the extension of domestic markets, which can help lower energy costs to industry and consumers. In Canada, diversification of electricity markets and increased movement of crude oil from west to east can help expand domestic energy markets and strengthen overall interprovincial trade.

That's just a bit of background on the topic we're discussing. Now I want to get directly to the witnesses from the department....

Yes, Mr. Julian.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Sorry, Mr. Chair. I just thought it would be appropriate for us to welcome our new member.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes. I guess Mr. Garneau isn't officially part of the committee yet, in terms of paperwork and stuff, but that is a very good point, Mr. Julian, and I thank you for that.

Mr. Garneau, welcome to our committee. We're very much looking forward to having you as a member of the committee. I'm sure you will add a lot of value to the committee. We're looking forward to that. It's good to see you here.

We have a number of witnesses today.

First, from the Department of Natural Resources, we have Jeff Labonté, director general, petroleum resources branch, the energy sector. Welcome.

Jonathan Will is director general of the electricity resource branch, energy sector. Welcome.

John Foran is director of the oil and gas policy and regulatory affairs division, petroleum resources branch, energy sector. Welcome to you.

And Dave McCauley is director, uranium and radioactive waste division, electricity resources branch of the energy sector. You've been before our committee previously, on other topics, as have some of the others.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we have Carolyn Knobel, director of the multi-industry sector and virtual practices division, global business opportunities bureau. That's quite a handle.

As you guys can see, we have a really wide range of responsibilities represented by the officials today. That's the type of topic we have.

I'm very much looking forward to the presentation by the departmental officials, and then we'll get to questions and comments.

Would you please go ahead with the presentation, Mr. Labonté.

3:35 p.m.

Jeff Labonté Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you very much, everybody.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee this afternoon.

It's a pleasure to be here. We're delighted that we could be among the first speakers for your new study on this particular subject, which is extremely important to Canada.

We've circulated a presentation that has a lot of information in it. We felt that providing it would be helpful as you start the study. I don't intend to speak to every single slide, but I'll focus on several key ones and try to stay within the timeframe. We can then make ourselves available for your questions.

I'll start with slide 1. We really wanted to outline the importance of energy market diversification to Canada. It's without a doubt a significant, if not the most significant, part of the economy that's under way today. It's certainly one that's growing and continues to grow.

What's more, Canada is a global energy leader. In comparison with other countries, worldwide, we have tremendous resources.

Certainly, when you look at the list, you see it: we're third in natural gas, fifth in oil, third in hydroelectric power, second in uranium, including with our domestic nuclear technology in CANDU. With 75% of our electricity generation being non-emitting, Canada's energy assets and energy context are extraordinary by any standard, so much so that in many international fora the conversation on energy security for Canadians is one that seems almost to be a non-question. We speak to the market-based principles and to the issues of energy from the vantage point of being extremely blessed, which is not something that is shared around the world.

In slide 4, we can see that those energy assets and Canada's energy activities are of significant benefit to Canada's economy. We're looking at close to 10% of the gross domestic product, over 300,000 direct jobs, and a significant number of spinoff jobs. Those jobs are spread throughout the country. Alberta, which is not on the list, has 136,000, and there are 60,000 in Ontario, 33,000 in Quebec, and 22,000 in B.C. The numbers are quite significant and impressive.

It's also an important part of Canada's merchandise trade, with $120 billion in exports, or 27% of it. Those numbers relate to the price of commodities as well as the volumes of energy that are produced and traded. At the same time, the activities in energy bring in significant payments to governments. Over the last five years, those have averaged about $25 billion.

Those benefits are across the country. Those jobs continue to grow, as does that economic growth. It's forecast that natural resources projects represent about $650 billion worth of investment over the next decade, or well over 100 projects in energy. If we take the oil sands alone, the Canadian Energy Research Institute projects over the next 25 years an average of 630,000 total jobs, indirect, direct, and induced. These are fairly significant numbers.

At the same time, global energy demand, as indicated on slide 6, continues to grow. According to the International Energy Agency, global energy demand will increase by 35% by 2035. Those increases will come in natural gas, in renewables, and in oil. At the same time, even in the most optimistic projections looking at the scenarios given the climate implications and emissions profiles, by 2035 oil and gas will continue to consume about 47% of global energy demand.

As I said, Canada is blessed but at the same time is positioned well to diversify and grow in that growing global market. That market is certainly one in which we see both crude oil production and natural gas having tremendous opportunities; however, we will move to slide 8.

Owing to North America's inability to reach world markets, its prices are well below global benchmarks. Here we're talking about crude oil and natural gas. In the energy sector, Canada is facing a growing problem as far as low prices go, and that represents not only a major challenge, but also a decrease in revenue. Those effects extend to governments as well as the private sector, not to mention the country as a whole.

In slide 9, if we look at diversification as our opportunity to realize growing benefits, we'll see that those benefits, as the chair has pointed out, certainly would be much larger if we were to reach more markets than the current markets we serve. Predominantly we serve the United States for 100% of natural gas, 100% of electricity, and 99% of our oil exports.

In terms of those costs and discounts, however you might call them—people reference them as discounts, as revenues lost, as opportunity cost loss—Canadian energy products are sold at less than global prices. That brings less revenues to the economy, and that brings less growth and less revenues to government, however you slice it. There are different ways of looking at that, and we can certainly talk to those and address questions on that front.

Turning now to slide 10, the push to reach new and diversified markets is one in which infrastructure plays the most critical role. That infrastructure is really looking at market-based responses to reach new markets. Those involve new pipeline proposals, increasing the movement of energy products by rail, increased infrastructure development for electricity, and natural gas exports via liquefied natural gas projects.

Slide 11 is fairly complicated. It outlines all of the different projects that exist in the country with respect to moving crude oil east, west, and south, each trying to reach new markets or to tidewater—tidewater being the ability for an energy producer or an energy customer to load energy products onto a ship to be able to reach markets throughout the world.

There are a number of projects. Looking at the west, there's the Enbridge Northern Gateway project, which is under regulatory review, at 525,000 barrels a day. There's the Trans Mountain expansion, which looks at 590,000 proposed barrels per day. That would be expanded. That project has not yet applied for regulatory review. There is the Enbridge Bakken project in central Canada that would move actually Bakken crude from the United States to Canada's pipeline network, and move that crude then to markets in eastern United States and eastern Canada.

This demonstrates an important facet of our energy infrastructure in North America, that it's integrated across the continent. Energy flows between Canada and the United States in both directions. Although the direction moving from Canada to the United States is of much more significant volume, there are exchanges that occur in all of the energy commodities.

There has recently been the announcement of the TransCanada project moving east, which would propose to convert a natural gas pipeline that exists in the Canadian mainline to crude oil transport. That would involve some new build that would allow that project to reach eastern Canadian markets as far as Saint John, New Brunswick, as well as Montreal and Quebec City.

There is the project of Keystone XL, which I think is well known, well publicized, to reach the United States gulf coast market. The southern portion, of course, has been approved and is proceeding. The northern portion is awaiting regulatory approval from the United States government.

Looking across, there is the additional project from Enbridge called the oil market access project, which would expand an existing pipeline referred to as the Alberta Clipper. That would increase the throughput and volume that would reach the midwest United States, and then would be added to an extension project that would reach the southern gulf market.

There of course is the reversal of the Line 9 projects in Ontario and Quebec, in which Enbridge proposes to move crude from today's east to west, to become west to east. At this point the project has been approved from Sarnia to just outside of Hamilton, to Nanticoke, to serve the Nanticoke refinery. There is an application before the NEB that would see that project get further reversed to reach Montreal. That is under regulatory review by the National Energy Board.

These are the main projects that we speak to when we speak to the market-based responses in which you see efforts under way by different participants to reach east, south, and west.

At the same time, there are substantial projects under way that move crude and energy by rail. Those projects have been increasing at a fairly rapid clip. Rail offers tremendous opportunities and flexibilities for producers in that, often, without building the infrastructure of a fixed nature and using existing infrastructure through rail lines and railcars, smaller volumes and smaller-scale projects can reach markets much more quickly, and have done so at a fairly rapid clip. A total of 180,000 barrels a day of rail transportation of fuel oil and crude occurred in 2012, up 66%. In the United States, that number has been rising even more rapidly, approaching a million barrels a day of movement by rail.

I'll now turn to slide 13.

Export terminals are being proposed in order to take advantage of global LNG, or liquefied natural gas, prices. We're looking at the projects. There are five on the west coast of British Columbia and one in Nova Scotia. Another project involves an LNG importing facility in New Brunswick.

These projects are of such a nature that Canada's natural gas resources would be produced and shipped by pipeline to the coast, at which point companies would be developing liquefied natural gas terminals and plants so it would be loaded onto liquefied natural gas tankers and then brought to new markets. To put things into context, the liquefied natural gas price globally hovers between $10 and $12 to $15 in Europe and between $16 and $20 in Asia. In Canada, natural gas, the same molecules, sell for about $3 to $3.50 but have an immense amount of fixed cost as well. So we will be able to speak to the differential that actually demonstrates that there is an opportunity there to reach new markets and to reach new revenues.

In conclusion, we do have a market-based energy policy, one in which market actors take actions to develop new markets and to move forward through significant investments. The government welcomes investments by foreign companies and countries who wish to be active participants in Canada's energy economy so long as they behave according to market principles. We have investment frameworks which Industry Canada controls to support those. The government certainly supports the efforts of industry to diversify, as long as the projects are applicable and meet all the applicable regulatory and environmental requirements on which the independent regulatory bodies make decisions.

In conclusion, we will continue to be an export-based economy, and certainly energy is a significant part. Our energy production is forecast to continue to grow. Diversification is certainly a means for us to become and continue to be a global player and to attract better revenues and better opportunities for our energy products, and certainly those energy opportunities are tied to infrastructure and the need for us to attract the capital and to continue to do well with our development in a responsible way.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much for what I feel was a very good summary to get us kicked off here. I appreciate that very much.

We will go now to questions and comments from members, starting with Ms. Crockatt, for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you very much.

Thanks very much for coming, Mr. Labonté, and for that succinct presentation.

As our chair has said, this is the new study on international market access, so I would like to set the stage here by focusing on one of the six aspects you highlighted. That is the rationale for market access. I would like to ask you about public and consumer benefits.

Which provinces in recent years have traditionally been have-not provinces, in that they've generally been receiving equalization from the federal government?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I'm not a finance expert. I think generally speaking the only three that contribute are Newfoundland and Labrador, Alberta, and British Columbia—I mean Saskatchewan.

3:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Apologies, Mr. Anderson.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Good. So what would be the commonality among the provinces that are paying into equalization?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I think most economists would say strong resource economies that contribute tremendous wealth to the public purse, if you will.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

So they're all energy producers.

So might it be fair to say that fossil fuels, then, are one of the key elements that are keeping our transfer payments funded?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I'm not sure I could make that policy statement, but I think one might be able to draw that conclusion. My view would be that the economy is productive in many different ways, and certainly the resource economy contributes substantial amounts. Those three provinces that you reference as contributing more than others tend to have fairly large resource economy aspects and energy aspects, but large parts of the economies of other provinces contribute as well, so I can't really comment on the complete transfer payment aspect.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

You talked about our being blessed and that this was spread right across the country. I wanted to give you a bit of an opportunity to state that.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I'd probably add that energy production and energy activities in one province don't necessarily hold only within that province. So the service sectors, the supporting engineering and financial and investment community, the training and education, and the products that are consumed by those companies that are active in the energy sector are produced all over the country. So whether it's the trucks and buses or the pipe fittings and the metal, whether it's the financing, the insurance business or the engineering services, they tend to be in all the provinces. So that's where we see the benefit accruing, in addition to the payments that go into royalties and revenues and taxes for governments.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Good.

Mr. Oliver talked on Tuesday about the pipeline from west to east, and you also referred to it. I wondered if you could just talk about some of the opportunities for jobs in Quebec, Ontario, and New Brunswick in the refineries, and what those might bring to Canadians in terms of benefits.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Today, the refineries in eastern Canada, whether they're in Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or Newfoundland, operate using imported crude. Those refineries employ Canadians and continue to employ Canadians and are doing reasonably well, but their margins and their efforts are fairly tight given that the global energy price they pay and the markets they work in are fairly competitive.

Certainly, accessing Canadian crude or western crude, or even crude from the northern midwest of the United States, whether it's Bakken or Canadian crude, offers a stable supply of it and also the ability for some of those dollars that transfer between the acquisition of the crude and the seller to remain within the North American context. I think that the more profitable, the more marketable, and the more stable we can make the refinery business, the more likely it is that the jobs will remain in Canada, that we won't see us importing more product, and that we'll see the opportunities there for refineries to continue. There is—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

So we could be preserving jobs in Canada by building a pipeline to New Brunswick?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Certainly it would contribute to preserving those jobs, and certainly there is discussion that has been in the media of different refineries looking at the possibility of expanding or considering whether they want to add an upgrading capability to process bitumen or other forms of crude energy products.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay.

Could a pipeline from the west to the east actually reduce gas prices for consumers in eastern Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

That's a tough one. Certainly, the price of gasoline is a fairly competitive market that works on a kind of continental scale, so you tend to see movement of the cost structure around gasoline and diesel between markets fairly fluidly, given the ability for people to move product using rail, shipping, and barges and different forms. I don't think we're able to say that accessing Canadian crude equals lower gas prices.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay. Maybe I can turn that one over to John and ask John for his view of it.

Do you see any other consumer benefits in regard to a west-east pipeline?

3:50 p.m.

John Foran Director, Oil and Gas Policy and Regulatory Affairs Division, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

We produce the “Fuel Focus” report every two weeks, which looks at the input costs to refineries and at gasoline prices. It's a five-page report and has a lot of data and information.

As my DG has said, the refineries in eastern Canada are paying global-type prices for their crude, for the most part. They're starting to access western Canadian and U.S. Bakken North Dakota crude by rail. Today, for example, we're talking about a Brent price of about $100 a barrel. Canadian crude is about $85 a barrel for the same type of identical light crude.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

How might that translate down, though? I think we've heard the numbers a lot. What I'm trying to get at is something that the consumer can understand. How might that actually translate to the consumer?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

You have a global market, and so with the ability of producers to reach markets and ships and to compete to sell that crude to willing buyers as a globally traded commodity, you're not going to sell it for $85 to a refinery in—