Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 20th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Woodside.

[Claire Woodside]

I just want to say that if Canadian legislation is to align with international standards, then it would include a series of related payments or a single payment. If a company makes a monthly payment and it is $10,000, but over the course of a year it accumulates to over $100,000—so it's $120,000—they would need to report that payment, because it is a series of related payments.

We would expect the Canadian legislation, once it has been fully formed, and the administrative processes to include single payments or a series of related payments. That's what would be consistent with the global standard.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

My understanding is that it will be broken down in that manner. As mentioned by I think everybody here, Canada has an excellent global reputation. I think the development of this legislation is effectively to be a key partner in transparency.

I guess I'm wondering—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Sorry, Mr. Leef, your time is up. You can wonder, but you'll have to do it in silence to yourself.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

But thank you so much.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

You only gave me two and a half minutes last time. I thought you'd give me more today. No?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you so much. I'm not a nice guy.

Ms. Charlton, go ahead, please. You have up to five minutes.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

That was a very nice way of telling Mr. Leef to use his inside voice for the remainder of his questions.

First of all, let me thank all of you for the incredible work you've done to get us to this point. I know it's not always easy when industry and civil society groups come together and work toward a consensus. I think you've done incredible work to get to this point.

My other observation is that, if you've put all this work into it and you've arrived at a consensus, it's a bit disappointing that we don't see that consensus fully reflected in the legislation. That's not a fair question to put to you. It's a question we should have put to the government representatives in the brief opportunity we had to speak with them about why that consensus isn't accurately reflected here.

By way of observation, I'm also deeply disappointed that we find a section in this bill relating to first nations when they've been very clear. I've got a letter in front of me from the Chiefs of Ontario who are saying that the Government of Canada has never consulted and accommodated first nations on the mandatory reporting initiative, which is a position that's been echoed by others including the Canadian Bar Association. I find it—I don't know what the right word is that doesn't get me in trouble with the chair—profoundly troubling that clause 29 is in this bill without such consultation. I think, in fact, that clause ought to be deleted in its entirety. If such consultation were to take place down the road and a consensus were achieved, then the bill could always be amended down the road.

Let me ask you this. If that clause were to come out of the bill, I assume it would make absolutely no difference to the objectives that you're trying to achieve, if we exempted the applicability to first nations in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Gratton, go ahead, please.

[Pierre Gratton]

I'll make two comments.

One is to respond to your opening comment, and Claire might add to this. It would be fair to say that we are almost there. This is Canada on the cusp of demonstrating incredible global leadership. This legislation goes a long way and is largely faithful with the recommendation. I don't want people to think that Canada has dropped the ball here. However, there certainly are some additional amendments that would truly distinguish Canada. That's why we're here today, to put those forward, because it does fall short in some key areas. I see it as an opportunity, so I implore all of you to seize that opportunity by considering our proposals.

On the issue of aboriginal payments, I spoke to it earlier. Generally speaking, it's not critical and it has never been critical to our work. We think that ultimately transparency is valuable in all respects. I would say that it would be a good thing to ultimately get there, particularly as aboriginal governments become more and more autonomous and empowered. But, it's how we get there that's important. It has to involve very comprehensive outreach and consultation with them. In the end I think it will make a lot of sense to actually do this, but we have to get there in the right way.

[Claire Woodside]

I think we can echo what Pierre said.

As a transparency organization, I will never dispel the benefits of transparency to anybody. I do think there are very broad benefits. That said, we've been very supportive and concerned around the consultation issues and supportive of the delay, and in contact with groups like the Chiefs of Ontario to discuss their concerns. I think there does need to be a concerted effort to not only develop a consultative process that meets the needs of first nations but then to fulfill that over the next few years.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

I certainly appreciate that this is something you've been working on for a very long time. I didn't at all mean to suggest that this bill wasn't a step in the right direction. I do think that it's in committee for a reason. We ought to have an opportunity to improve the bill. I think you've made some very concrete suggestions, particularly around looking at things on a project-by-project basis and disaggregating data for it actually to be meaningful. I think we ought to take that recommendation to heart. I'm hoping that it was heard on all sides of this committee room.

We haven't spent very much time talking about the requirement to make information public. It's actually a big concern of mine. I think it always matters how we make information public and therefore to whom that information is accessible. Not everybody has access to fast Internet. Might any of you want to speak a bit more about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Very, very briefly, one of you.

Ms. Woodside.

[Claire Woodside]

Public information is at the heart of this bill. Without it you don't have a purpose of the act, because if citizens or other end users cannot access the information then the information cannot be used to deter corruption. Because it's so central to the bill we would say that it should be the clearest commitment in the act that the data will be made public. We have never heard from companies that they want to keep this data secret.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

But there is always how you make something accessible—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I'm sorry, Ms. Charlton, time is more than up. Thank you.

Before I thank the witnesses and before we go in camera for our discussions on the letter to the chair of the finance committee I just want to ask the committee a question. We have students from McGill University involved in the program Women in House, which gives them a chance to shadow female MPs in the House of Commons. There are 37 students involved in this with MPs from all parties. We have three here today and I want to ask whether the committee would allow them to stay for the in camera session. We would need unanimous consent, as it's not the normal practice. Is there consent?

[An hon member]

Yes, if there's confidentiality.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Obviously the students have to respect the confidentiality, absolutely, and I don't see a problem with that. Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It is agreed so they will stay. Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses: from the Mining Association, Ben Chalmers and Pierre Gratton; from Publish What You Pay, Claire Woodside, director; from the Natural Resource Governance Institute, Andrew Bauer-Gador, economic analyst; from Oxfam, Lina Holguin, policy director; and by video conference from CAPP, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, Ben Brunnen, manager fiscal and economic policy, and Alex Ferguson, vice-president policy and performance.

Thank you all very much for some very useful information today. I thank the members for their questions. We will suspend and go in camera in about two minutes. So if the witnesses and anyone else who isn't allowed to be in an in camera meeting would leave the room we'll get right into the in camera portion.

The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]