Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now to go Ms. Jones, from the Liberal Party of Canada, for six minutes.

Ms. Jones, the floor is yours.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

First of all, let me start by saying that earlier in the committee sessions, the Conservatives on the committee made a statement that they felt the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Nova Scotia had been “hoodwinked” into supporting Bill C-49 and its amendments.

Can you tell me if you had full knowledge of what was going in this bill and what was an integral part of negotiating the terms and conditions of the bill, or were you in fact hoodwinked, as the Conservatives say?

I'll go to you first, Minister Parsons, and then to Minister Rushton.

[Andrew Parsons]

What I would say is that our government—whether it be the premier or various ministers, as well as the officials—certainly played a role in the development of this.

This is something when it comes to the offshore.... We've had a well-running board for decades now, and in this case we were very interested in moving forward on the offshore regulation of this new opportunity.

Certainly, I don't feel like there were any fast ones being pulled. I don't feel like I was hoodwinked. That's not a term that's come up so far. However, I'm interested in being able to answer any more questions. If somebody wants to tell me how I was hoodwinked, I'd be very interested in hearing their perspective.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Minister Rushton.

[Tory Rushton]

Thank you very much.

First and foremost, I want to recognize the full confidence that I have in our current board in Nova Scotia. There's 30 years of experience plus a lot of expertise on that board. Certainly, these were conversations that we had minister to minister, department to department and premier to premier, and there were conversations with our board locally on the process to do the amendments to this act to ensure that Nova Scotia will have some say in this, that our voice is still heard at the table and that we can make decisions in conjunction with our federal partners.

This is something that we worked very closely on with our federal counterparts to ensure that this bill is something we can foster in Nova Scotia, that we feel comfortable as we move the economy in Nova Scotia and that we have green energy put into our system.

That's only going to help our province and our country.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

On Monday, we had testimony from Mr. Ches Crosbie, the former leader of the PC Party of Newfoundland and Labrador. He made two accusations. One is that your provinces have failed the accord. I'm looking for his exact words here. He said, “to defend the Atlantic accord”. He also said, “climate change is bogus”, indicating that legislation or amendments to Bill C-49 are unnecessary at this time if they're being done to meet changing climate targets.

Can I ask you both to comment, first of all, on how critical this legislation is to clean energy in your provinces? Will it support a growing economy and jobs in your provinces? That is certainly not the testimony we've heard from some witnesses at the committee.

[Andrew Parsons]

I think it's very important when it comes to renewable energy that we be able to move forward quickly and efficiently. Certainly there's an excitement within the province regarding the opportunity that comes with our offshore, but there's also the need to get a strong regulatory framework in place. As a province, we've been lucky to have that in place with our offshore oil. We have a great understanding of how this works, how it can work and the opportunities it presents. Again, I would have nothing to say on that. We're looking to move forward.

The last thing I can say is that there are a great many issues or points on which I do not agree with Mr. Crosbie, and it's the same for these two.

[Tory Rushton]

Certainly this is very important for Nova Scotia. I can tell you stories of how Nova Scotia has trained many people for the ocean technology sector, and we've seen them go travelling worldwide outside of Nova Scotia. For the first time in many, many years, we've been seeing those people we trained here in Nova Scotia coming back home to work in a sector they feel very confident in.

This is going to be a huge, changing spectrum for Nova Scotia as we get into the green energy spectrum. This is something that's going to change the landscape in Nova Scotia. It's going to change the economic abilities of Nova Scotia in the years to come. This is something we need to see take place very quickly. As I said in my opening remarks, we can't wait a long time for this to move forward; we're waiting at hand right now.

I will just touch on a previous witness's statement. I've been watching the committee very closely. Unfortunately I didn't get to see Monday's statements, but with respect to what our government has done, I think our history in the last two years has set a standard for what we believe in. In our province we have legislated some climate change goals. They're not just things we've stated; we've legislated them. We've seen different disasters; we've seen heavy floods in our province, and we've seen massive forest fires in our province, which we've dealt with right here within my department. I think our history speaks for itself. We have a legacy behind us. We're going to action our plans and move forward on our commitments.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I want to thank you both for your answers to my questions. I appreciate them.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, ministers.

Thank you, Ms. Jones, for your questions.

We will proceed to Monsieur Simard from the Bloc Québécois for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Parsons, I'm a Bloc Québécois member. I focus on respect for provincial jurisdictions. I don't think that Bill C‑49 poses any problems in this area. However, I do want to explain my reservations about this bill.

Witnesses have come here to share their perspective that fossil fuels and renewable energy are on an equal footing. Some people may consider this an issue. As a result, it can't be said that this bill aligns perfectly with the energy transition. In my opinion, the energy transition means moving from an economy based on carbon‑intensive energy to clean, low‑carbon energy.

In your presentation, you spoke about what the transition means for Newfoundland and Labrador. I have a simple question for you. Shouldn't the bill include clear statements that we're committed to clean energy? That isn't the case right now.

[Andrew Parsons]

We've been a part of this process, and we are quite satisfied with the bill as it stands. We are looking forward to the quick passage of this piece of legislation. We would like to see this move forward so we can continue on with the development of our offshore renewable resource, but we've been quite clear about the impact of the oil and gas sector on our province and what it does for us as a province. It provides revenue for our social system, for our network. With the jobs and royalties it creates, it also helps pay for our education and for everything our citizens rely on. I don't believe there will be any change in that demand for some time. We also recognize that there will be a transition and that the transition is not going to occur overnight, so we hope to actually take some of the resources we get from this to help us with the green transition that is occurring with the offshore energy transition.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you for your response.

I fully understand the importance of oil and gas to your province. However, would you agree with an amendment to the bill stating that there shouldn't be any new oil and gas projects?

Would you support this type of amendment?

[Andrew Parsons]

Absolutely not.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

That's clear enough. Thank you.

In the event of a conflict over use, such as a wind project that conflicts with an oil and gas project, would you support an amendment to the bill that prioritizes clean energy projects?

[Andrew Parsons]

No, what I'm a believer in is the opportunity to have clear conversations, discussion and study into the pros and cons of everything and what the total impact will be.

I certainly take the point of the question, and I understand the logic behind it, but I wouldn't be able to just wholeheartedly say yes to that without knowing what these different impacts are. Again, that's something we would work with our regulator on. Certainly there are a lot of smart people within our various departments who would want to see what the study is.

While I certainly get it, I wouldn't be able to automatically say that yes, I think that clean energy has priority over it without knowing the full impact, especially on the future of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and keeping everything in consideration.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you for your response.

You and I both know that wind power requires quite expensive infrastructure. Turning wind power into hydrogen then adds to the cost. I know that your province has incurred cost overruns with Muskrat Falls.

Can you predict what a wind project involving hydrogen production might look like overall?

Do you have any idea of the potential costs involved?

[Andrew Parsons]

There are just a couple of things there. When it comes to the offshore, no, we haven't had any proposal put to us, even in the roughest terms, in terms of what it would cost or what it would entail.

Certainly, when it comes to onshore projects, of which we have four that have now been given approval to move forward, they all differ depending on the megawatts, the scope of the project and what they hope to produce.

I would point out one difference between this and the Muskrat Falls project that you referenced earlier, which was commissioned back in 2012. It was funded in many ways by taxpayers, but, in this particular case right now, the province is not subsidizing these onshore projects, and certainly there has been no discussion as to subsidizing offshore.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus from the New Democratic Party for six minutes.

Mr. Angus, the floor is yours.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Mr. Rushton, I'll begin with you.

My grandfather was Joe MacNeil. He would have done anything to stay in Cape Breton, but when the coal gave out, that was it, they were gone. We grew up as expats in northern Ontario, where all the other Nova Scotians used to come on Saturday nights and sing the songs. There wasn't a single one of my relatives in New Waterford, Iona or Glace Bay who stayed. When the coal went, they all went.

I guess the issue here is that you have an economic opportunity, and we can sit and have it blocked by the Conservatives, or we can move ahead, but the facts are the facts. The change is coming.

How important is it that we move with speed and get this through the House of Commons, so that you can do what you need to do to ensure economic diversity in Nova Scotia?

[Tory Rushton]

Thank you very much for that. I certainly appreciate it.

It's very important. I was a tradesperson before politics, so I know how many people left the province within my own trade, and now they're looking to come back.

On the speed of this, I'll be quite honest. There are people in the sector who have been watching this committee over the last couple of weeks. There are probably people who have put projects on hold along the strait in Cape Breton to see how things are going today.

You asked how important this is. Passing this bill is very important for the economy in Nova Scotia. There are people from all over the world, stakeholders who are coming to Nova Scotia and looking at the wind regimes that we have in Nova Scotia and the ability and expertise that we have in offshore to make this home and to help Nova Scotia grow. Our population is growing by great numbers for the first time in many years.

People are looking at Nova Scotia as a leader in many things, but something we're very proud about is that Nova Scotia is being looked at as an opportunity for green jobs and a green economy. In years to come, I think people are going to look back at this. Once this gets moving along, once Bill C-49 is passed, people will look at this decades from now and say, “Here was a move that made Nova Scotia a capital of renewable energy in the world.”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We're looking at what's happening in the United States. I think I started following offshore wind in the North Sea about five years ago. A lot of it seemed almost hypothetical or maybe possible, but we're seeing what's happening with the Biden administration in Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Rhode Island, Martha's Vineyard and New Jersey. These are projects that are going to give electricity to up to 700,000 homes. The ports are busy. The tradespeople are going to work.

You said investors are making decisions now. What message does it send to investors when we have a party here that has said it's going to block this legislation and it's going to sit on it? Are investors going to sit and wait until the Conservatives decide that they're going to support Nova Scotia, or are they just going to move to where the jobs and the investments are going, which is just south of us, to the United States?

[Tory Rushton]

Obviously, I can't speak for the investors. What I can do, as minister and a representative of this government, is advocate to them. We want these investors here in Nova Scotia. This is a legislative process that is going through.

Would I like to see this done right away for the benefit of Nova Scotia? Absolutely. My job is to advocate with them and work with them with the processes that are in place.

To be honest, I can't stress how important this is to our government, to our province and also to our country as we all plan for a cleaner energy spectrum and set goals for 2030, 2050 and years out. This is not just important to the future of Nova Scotia; it's important to the future of Canada.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Minister Parsons, we know that Newfoundland and Labrador really benefited from the offshore oil and gas. You built up a world-class expertise. Just two years ago, Bay du Nord was approved. It's a 300-million-barrel project that went through all the approval processes. That's a hell of an investment of time, yet the company walked. They said there was no economic case for it.

That sent a real signal. We see that the International Energy Agency is now predicting up to a 25% decrease in demand in the next six years.

If we're looking at that change happening that fast, how important is it that we use the skills we have in Newfoundland and Labrador and use ports like Argentia to start being able to compete, so we have something to fall back on if the oil sector does make that transition that seems to be happening faster than expected?