Evidence of meeting #11 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Geffros  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Wood Pallet and Container Association
Nighbor  President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
Verreault  Vice President, Corporate Affairs, Chantiers Chibougamau
Vincent  Chief Economist, Quebec Forest Industry Council
Lavigne  National Representative, Research Department, Unifor
Cloutier  Quebec Director, Unifor

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Good afternoon, colleagues. I call this meeting to order, and as I usually do, I acknowledge that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders.

I'd like to remind members and witnesses in the room that you can use the earpiece on the table in front of you and select the desired channel for interpretation. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Thursday, September 18, 2025, the committee will resume its study of the forestry industry.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses on the first panel.

We have, from the Canadian Wood Pallet and Container Association, Scott Geffros, chief executive officer. From the Forest Products Association of Canada, we have Derek Nighbor, president and CEO.

Welcome, Scott and Derek. You will each have five minutes or less for your opening remarks.

Mr. Geffros, we'll start with you. You have the floor for five minutes.

Scott Geffros Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Wood Pallet and Container Association

Thank you all for allowing me to present here today.

As indicated, I am the CEO of the Canadian Wood Pallet and Container Association, Canada's only national organization representing the wood packaging sector. We've been around for about 60 years and currently represent about 200 members across Canada.

Our members produce the conveyances that move products through the supply chain: pallets, crates, dunnage, cable spools, agricultural bins and boxes. We contribute approximately $1 billion annually to the Canadian economy, but it's really our indirect contribution that is astounding. Our products support about $750 billion in trade of Canadian goods. Whether that's within Canada, within the U.S. or exported around the globe, it's pretty much all moving in or supported by wood packaging.

Strategically, we are the supply chain backbone. Our products are indispensable to our supply chain, and we make sure that our manufacturers can get their goods to market effectively and efficiently.

Our forestry linkage is kind of odd. We get pigeonholed as a forest product sector. Ultimately, we find ourselves as more about supply chain and logistics, but our raw material inputs are primarily lumber.

From a softwood utilization perspective, 80% of Canadian wood packaging manufactured uses Canadian softwood, particularly the low-grade material that is otherwise hard for the mills to move. Therefore, we're a key contributor to mill profitability and efficiency in lumber processing.

I've noted some policy challenges and recommendations that I am going to summarize quickly.

The first one relates to trade duties and softwood tariffs. U.S. trade actions are injurious to Canadian companies. There's absolutely no doubt about that. For our sector, they are directly affecting us or indirectly affecting us. Whether through CVD and AD on Canadian softwood products or through the tariffs associated with section 232, they hurt. They can hurt us directly, but they can also hurt the people we manufacture for.

As to some of the quick and dirty takeaways we have, we would really like to see assembled wood packaging excluded from any future softwood lumber agreement negotiations or as part of the CUSMA negotiations. I think it's critical that packaging that carries our goods around the world can move freely and be located and moved to the places it needs to be to move goods in the supply chain.

We've also been asking various folks throughout government to recognize wood packaging as critical infrastructure. Without our products, goods simply don't make it through the supply chain. There's no need to duty a pallet. It's built with one purpose in mind, and that is to get goods where they need to go. That type of designation would be very helpful to the sector.

Lastly, the promotion of wood packaging in government procurement and supply chains would really help to support domestic manufacturing. It would also go a long way toward reaching our and your environmental goals.

Recently, Prime Minister Carney announced a goal to increase trade with the EU by up to 50% in the next 10 years. It's a great goal. However, for our sector, it poses some very unique and very special challenges.

European supply chains are not the same as North American ones, and they require different sizes of platforms and different types of lumber. There are also much stricter tolerances on production.

Obviously, most of our production is geared towards North American supply networks, and for us as an industry to pivot to support Canadian manufacturers in trade expansion will require significant investment in machinery upgrades. It could be $2 million and a three-year wait time to get a machine. More importantly, the lumber components required are a lot more specific than what we currently utilize here in North America: metric-dimension material with very strict quality tolerances. We definitely need to upgrade our production and capacity to saw in order to make these components, make these platforms viable and make them available to Canadian exporters.

We're looking for support in modernization through targeted funding and incentives, as well as means to facilitate collaboration between our sector and the sawmill sector to make these components available to us so that we're not seeking offshore suppliers, such as Brazil, to support our industry.

The next one I would like to bring up is the ISPM 15 program. This is the phytosanitary program, which enables wood packaging to move globally and enter countries around the world. This is to protect against insect movement.

Our program is recognized around the world; it's very strong. However, we have come to find out after 20 years that it has been designed in a way that is largely unenforceable.

It is a voluntary compliance program to which our members belong. However, there's an awful lot of activity that goes on on the streets that is not policed, and the CFIA, which oversees this program, has admitted that they are unable to enforce it. We are seeking to gain assistance in enabling the CFIA to better undertake their role as overseer of the program in Canada and make sure we have a very strong and robust program that's able to carry and meet the needs of Canadian exporters.

I'm going to jump past the next one, because I am told that I am running over time.

I'm very happy to answer any questions, and I apologize for the overrun on time.

Thank you so much.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

We have your written brief here, Mr. Geffros, so it will be distributed. There will be a chance for things to come out during questions and comments, so thank you for that.

We'll go on to Mr. Nighbor.

You have five minutes or less.

Derek Nighbor President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Thanks, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to share time with some of our partners from industry and labour this afternoon. We at FPAC hold each of the individuals and their organizations presenting today in very high regard.

Our team at FPAC is proud to represent the forest products manufacturing industry across its entire value chain, from producers of lumber to panels and engineered wood to pulp and paper and bioenergy. It's an industry that creates nearly $90 billion a year in revenues and represents 11% of Canadian manufacturing. It generates over $37 billion in annual exports, which puts us in the top four of Canada's exporting industries. Most importantly, forestry means jobs right across the country. There are 200,000 full-time jobs supporting families in over 300 communities across Canada. Those jobs support another 200,000 indirect jobs across those same communities.

I want to thank all parties for your support. This has been an incredibly difficult time for our sector. Back on October 22, we were grateful to have representatives from every party at our annual conference, meeting with our executives and frontline workers. We appreciate the support that has been lent.

You know that we are facing serious headwinds given the current trade dispute with the U.S., which has our softwood lumber companies now facing combined duties and section 232 tariffs of over 45% on exports to the U.S., with repercussions already echoing across our value chain and starting to impact operating conditions for our pulp and paper mills and other facilities. Today, the federal and B.C. governments have met to discuss the softwood lumber file. I thought it would be appropriate to share some of the advice we shared with both governments heading into the meeting earlier today.

The first one is of a team Canada approach and prioritizing lumber in negotiations with the U.S. The Prime Minister rightly declared the forest sector a strategic one this summer and responded with a $1.25-billion response package in early August in anticipation of duties going up to 35%. Then they went up to 45% plus.

The response package was an important first step. However, coming out of the Prime Minister's last meeting at the White House some three weeks ago, the readout and public comments from ministers following it stated that steel, aluminum and energy were the sectoral priorities at the negotiating table. This honestly fell incredibly flat for us and put us in a terrible position when called by media to be asked why forestry was no longer being mentioned in the same sentence as steel, aluminum and energy.

We've heard clearly from the government since that forestry remains a priority. We know this is a complex negotiation. We're not unreasonable people in forestry. We don't expect to know everything that's going on at the table, but we do need to know where we stand. It's a case of help us help you, because we need to stand up for our people and our businesses.

On the messaging pivot that happened a couple of weeks ago and lack of clear communication, members need to know we can ill afford to have that happen again. I am hopeful that the task force announced today by both the B.C. and Canadian governments will go some way to rectifying that.

Our industry has never been more united nationally. We continue to work closely with our partners. Unifor will be speaking later today. We have never had more cohesion in a softwood lumber dispute across the country. Unifor and United Steelworkers are our most active partners on the labour side. We would like to see a formal table established to support our sector and our workers to ensure that we can be supportive to the government going forward.

I just want to touch on the funding piece very quickly. The BDC loan guarantee program rolled out this weekend. We appreciate that. We'll watch that closely and share back with government the experiences of our members.

There's the large enterprise tariff loan program, which is the one Algoma Steel tapped into. I think they are the only company to date to do so on the larger company side of things. The Canada Development Investment Corporation is still a bit of a black box to us. We need a bit of help navigating that system, and a request has been put into government to help us do that.

One ask that we also made to government is especially on behalf of our smaller companies, which need a bit of help navigating the system, especially when there are multiple programs in place. A one-window point of access with the Government of Canada would be so helpful, especially to small companies. We've made that request to the PMO and NRCan. It has so far been favourably received.

Employee supports, which will roll out through the provinces from ESDC, need to get to people ASAP. We need to ensure that our contractors are not left behind. Often our forestry contractors, our truckers and our mechanics are among those hit first and hard. They must be protected.

Most importantly, should this dispute drag on, employees and businesses will need expanded supports. We asked the federal government to work with us and our labour partners on creative solutions for the go-forward. Some of that work has started, but we need to move with urgency.

The final piece I'll touch on is really about controlling the controllable. This is the stuff in the regulatory efficiency space.

As an industry, we might not fall into the major project definition per se, but our footprint and economic impact demand a serious relook at how the federal government is duplicating provincial government rules and regulations. There are way too many unforced errors here.

We need to move away from the moments that our foresters, ecologists and chemical engineers are often facing: a provincial government truck at a culvert saying “Approved” and a federal government truck at the same culvert saying “Wait a second”. The province wants water or emissions variables reported one way; the feds want, in some cases, different information or a different reporting format. This stuff stifles investment, confidence and performance. To us, it's no longer acceptable.

Over 90% of our activities in Canada happen on lands under the purview of provincial governments. That work considers whole-of-ecosystem values, indigenous and non-indigenous engagement and feedback, local conditions and other values. After all that work is done, the province approves it. Third party certification and audits follow, often only to be followed by an eleventh-hour intervention by the federal government that upends the process.

In closing, if there is one good thing that comes out of this current trade dispute, beyond our new-found sense of national pride, let it be a commitment to being more serious about streamlining federal-provincial requirements.

I thank you for your time and look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you both.

We'll start the rounds of questions.

We'll start with Mr. Malette for six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Nighbor, thank you for being here and taking the time to meet with us.

From 2017 to six months ago, tariffs were roughly 14% or 15%. What has happened in the last six months? How hard has the industry been hit in the last six months?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

We've lost about 2,000 jobs in the last few months. That's the real job impact. The government package, the ESDC funding, was to support 6,000 workers, and we're quickly getting to that point. I want to make sure we're in the position, before it gets too bad, that we're planning if this thing drags out.

We've started to see more closures east to west in the last week. You heard about some of those in northern Ontario announced last week. We're a very integrated sector, so our pulp and paper mills rely on chips coming out of the sawmills. Let's not forget about the full value chain as we think about how we shore up, because there are opportunities to support our pulp and paper mills.

We're going to require different supports than the sawmills will, but the disruption is starting to happen across the value chain. When talking to Scott a little earlier, I heard this is starting to trickle through every part of our value chain now. As it goes on, it's going to get worse.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

You're quite right about the full value chain. We saw recently in Kapuskasing how disastrous that could have been.

Are there shortcomings to the $700-million loan from BDC? Has the industry figured out how to access it?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

I just got a note that the website went live last night, so it's still new. We've been told by Minister Joly's office that they tried to make sure it had as little bureaucracy as possible. We will see, and we will give feedback if that's indeed the case.

That program caps companies at about $20 million. That's the limit. We have some companies that are paying duties on their shipments of $4 million, $6 million, $8 million or $10 million a month. That's why the large enterprise tariff loan facility is going to be important for the larger companies.

Across the country, if this drags out, $700 million won't go very far. We just need to be prepared for what might be coming next. We appreciate that it is an important first step.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

NRCan's $500-million product and market fund rollout was in April. How does that help the forestry industry?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

We'd like it sooner.

That money would mainly fast-track innovation and support export market development. We're doing work with the prefab modular mass timber sectors to see how some of our mills can retool to support their work and increase domestic opportunity. We're going to do that.

The sooner the money flows, the better. We can get on with it. That is mainly about renewing the funding of some core programs with a bit of a top-up. Again, we appreciate it. We'd like to see it move a little more quickly.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Going back to the $700-million BDC loan, those are for modernization and improvement.

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

I haven't gone through the full specs of the program. My understanding is that the program is to support liquidity and provide backstops for loans so that companies can have an assurance that they're going to be able to pay the bills.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Your industry will be well informed about that, because the website just came out yesterday.

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

Minister Joly's office has been really clear that they want to know how it's going, so I expect that in the next week or two we'll have a bit of information to share.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

What recommendations would you offer to the federal government to support the lumber industry that have not been talked about?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

I think the first one is about the negotiation. We get that this is really difficult. If there's some way we can support the government in coming to the table in a different way that's going to make the U.S. want to talk about lumber—I don't want to negotiate publicly—we're on board to help where we can.

I'd also say that we welcome the other supports. The housing play is important socially in this country for addressing the affordability crisis, and so is diversifying markets.

We sell $8 billion a year of lumber to the U.S. We sell $1 billion to Japan. We're not going to find $8 billion overnight. That's not a reason not to lean in and do as much as we can, but we need to understand the context here. Steel has a massive domestic opportunity, and aluminum can pivot quite quickly to other markets. We have a bit more of a challenge on our hands in lumber.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

You have 45 seconds. You don't have to use it all.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON

It's fine. That's good.

Thank you, Mr. Nighbor.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

We are going to move on to Mr. Danko.

Mr. Danko, you have six minutes.

John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to you both for taking the opportunity to join us this afternoon.

My questions are mainly for Mr. Nighbor, but Mr. Geffros, if you want to jump in with any answer, by all means please do.

We spoke a lot about the scale of the sector and the meaning of the forestry industry to Canada, with the amount of export revenue being, I think you said, the fourth largest in the country. We also talked quite a bit about tariffs and the current supports.

I want to ask about market opportunities within both the North American context and a global context. We talked about sawmills, sectional lumber and pulp and paper, but do you want to expand a bit on opportunities for manufactured products for the value-add as part of the forestry sector?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

There's long been a bit of healthy tension between the primary manufacturers, which I represent, and the secondary manufacturers. They say, “I'm not getting the sticks I need, the quality I need, the size I need and the dryness I need.” The prefab modular sector is in the single digits. Sweden is 85% modular. There's an advanced industry there. There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing happening here. Why would I sell four sticks over here when I can sell 400 over there?

As I said, it's not going to solve all our problems, but it's going to mean incremental opportunity and growth. Plus, it's going to address a social and economic challenge in this country.

I think the key here is what we're working on. FPAC will be working with the Canadian Wood Council, in collaboration with government, to bring the value chain together at a meeting in Toronto in a few weeks to talk about how we make connection points a bit better. Does an innovation need to happen at maybe a dozen or two dozen sawmills that might be in close proximity to an emerging modular factory?

I was at the Element5 opening in St. Thomas, Ontario. This mass timber manufacturer invested over $100 million to expand their operations. It's not something we can do carte blanche across the country, but I do think we can look at hub models and where facilities are located. We have over 500 sawmills across this country. If we can find 20 of them that can be retooled to support an emerging sector and, in collaboration with government, can get some guaranteed sales or some commitments to give those businesses assurances, that's an opportunity.

I'm very careful when talking about it. That's not going to fix the problem, but it's one of the tools we have in the tool box to blunt the blow.

4 p.m.

Liberal

John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Expanding on that a bit, I think Canadians see the forestry sector as one of the core industries that founded the country and are very proud of forestry as part of our national heritage.

I want to give you the opportunity to talk about our global competitiveness and how we stack up against competitors not only around the world but also within North America, with the quality of the products we produce being part of a competitive advantage for Canada.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Derek Nighbor

The quality of the product is why people want to turn to Canada, especially in the U.S. on the homebuilding side. You want to build with northern Canadian-grown softwood lumber because it's not going to warp. You want to frame your home with that stuff. You don't want southern yellow pine that you're going to throw onto a train in Tallahassee and that's going to be warped by the time it gets to Denver.

We have a natural advantage. This is also why the 6% market share we've lost since 2017 was lost to Sweden, Finland and Austria. We didn't lose it to the United States. Do you remember how lumber prices through the pandemic were skyrocketing? Even in that environment, the U.S. couldn't meaningfully increase their capacity. They could mow down every national park, but they don't have the boots on the ground. They don't have the mill capacity.

I don't want to be too cute here in saying this, but that's what's very frustrating. They actually need us, and they're filling the gap now by buying European wood. I'm not sure how that's in the best interests of North American prosperity and security.