Evidence of meeting #32 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was supreme.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hubert Lussier  Director General, Official Languages Support Programs, Department of Canadian Heritage
Jean-Bernard Lafontaine  Regional Executive Director, Atlantic Region, Department of Canadian Heritage
Hurtubise-Laranger  Committee Researcher

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Good morning and welcome to this 32nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Welcome to committee members and to our witnesses.

This week, we are completing our meetings with witnesses to discuss the Canada-Quebec collaboration agreements. Then our analyst, Ms. Hurtubise-Loranger, will be able to proceed with the drafting of the report and to send it to us at the end of May. It will then be available for our study, which should begin on June 3.

This morning, before going to the witnesses, we will deal with Mr. Coderre's motion. I see that everyone has a copy of it. I'm going to e-mail you the draft of the letter that will be sent to the CRTC pursuant to the motion we adopted concerning the airwaves and interference between two radio stations. So you'll receive the draft letter by e-mail, and you can send me any comments you may have.

Without further ado, we'll discuss Mr. Coderre's motion.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In light of our discussions last week and based on the evidence we've received, we see that it is important to understand that the laws are not translated. They are in their original language, in the language in which they were drafted. It is therefore necessary that translation not be the only way to interpret the laws, whether judges are anglophone or francophone. As the Supreme Court is the court of last resort, it is necessary and important, in our view...

Like all my colleagues, I felt concerned by the remarks of Mr. Michel Doucet, Ms. Louise Aucoin and the Commissioner of Official Languages. That's why I asked that the Standing Committee on Official Languages recommend that the government ensure that the judges that they appoint to the Supreme Court are bilingual, and that the adoption of that motion be reported to the House. I will eventually be introducing a private member's bill to that effect.

Mr. Justice Bastarache will be ending his career in a few weeks. It is important that we send the message that we are fighting for respect for the official languages and that the Supreme Court must represent not only all cultures, but also the values that define our country. We have two official languages: English and French. This motion is not only timely; it also reflects the committee's work.

This motion speaks for itself. I would ask my colleagues to vote accordingly.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

Are there any comments on Mr. Coderre's motion?

Mr. Nadeau.

9:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Mr. Chairman, I just want to emphasize that the Bloc Québécois will support this bill.

9:05 a.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

It's a motion.

9:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

We'll support the motion and the subsequent bill.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

You're making an announcement.

Mr. Petit.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

I'd like to have an explanation. I was here for the appointment of Mr. Justice Rothstein, who was apparently unilingual. He had been selected from a Liberal, not a Conservative list. Over the past 13 years, and even before that, the Liberal Party has virtually always formed the majority government. How is it that this type of proposal was never put on the table? I approve of what the Liberal Party is requesting, but I don't understand why it hasn't happened before this. One would say that, by this motion, the Liberals want to show that we Conservatives are opposed to bilingualism. It's that kind of motion.

I personally disagree with that, even though I agree on the principle. However, I don't understand why they didn't do this over those 13 years.

Furthermore, Mr. Rothstein's name comes from the Liberal Party list. I witnessed his appointment since I was on the committee.

I also don't understand why they're suddenly introducing this type of motion, which is more of a political motion than a motion designed to solve the problems. Since 1954, they have been in power for nearly 30 years and this kind of motion or act was never brought forward. They were in the majority and they formed the government for nearly 40 years, and we never saw anything like this.

How is it that the Supreme Court Act was never amended in 40 years, whereas they were a majority government, and that they suddenly wake up and say that the mean Conservatives are opposed to bilingualism? That's why I approve of the content of the motion as such, because we must reflect what Canada is, but I find that the motion in its present form is a political motion.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

We'll now go to Mr. Lemieux.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I think it's Mr. Coderre's turn.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Mr. Coderre, go ahead, please.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Since it's my motion, I'll wrap up.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I thought you wanted to answer questions—

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I'd prefer to answer them later. First I want to listen to your group therapy, then I'll answer.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

In my opinion, there are a number of criteria—

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Pardon me, Mr. Lemieux, but I want to raise a point of order.

Mr. Coderre, there isn't any group therapy here. I understand you, I admire you, I like you, but I'm not stupid, and neither are you. So we're going to resolve this right away. I'm going to follow you, I'm going to support you when it's right, and you will always have my support when what you present is proper, but stop saying that we're stupid.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

That's not a point of order, Mr. Petit.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

It's not a point of order, but if you feel compelled to respond, that's your problem. We think for ourselves.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

We're going to follow the speaking order. You'll all have the opportunity to speak, but we're going to follow the order. We'll hear from Mr. Lemieux, Mr. Chong, then Mr. Coderre.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We know there are a number of important criteria. When the government selects a candidate for a position of Supreme Court justice, it must consider a lot of things. The principles of merit and excellence are paramount, but it has to be vigilant and look for language skills in both official languages.

That is indeed a criterion that is not mandatory, but it is nevertheless a criterion. The two essential criteria are merit and excellence, according to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Justice and the minister himself.

In addition, when the Commissioner appeared before us last week, he said he acknowledged that Minister Nicholson's practice of consulting the chief justice of the court concerning the court's specific bilingual capacity needs was a step in the right direction. He acknowledges that we're doing a good job and that we have put good processes in place, and he is satisfied with that.

One of the difficulties I have with this motion, Mr. Chair, is that it really shows the hypocrisy of the Liberal Party.

The ship is sinking.

They know they're sinking. Basically, they have no policies. And with a motion such as this, they actually criticize their own performance when they were the government.

I want to pick up on what Monsieur Petit said. Here we have the Liberal government that over the past 13 years, most of which it ruled as a majority government, was in a far stronger position, when we count the number of MPs, than we are in now, and this was never an issue. It never came up. All of a sudden they've latched on to something, and it has become very, very important to them. Yet in doing so, they criticize their performance over the past 13 years.

A motion like this lacks sincerity and it lacks integrity. We see this lack of integrity in many other facets, particularly in the House. How many times have we seen the Liberals absolutely change their position? They vote against us, then they're voting for us, then they're voting against us again, but not in enough numbers to actually defeat us. They want to defeat us, but they won't defeat us. They won't show up in the House to vote. When they do show up in the House to vote, they sit on their hands.

Mr. Chair, I'm getting to the motion when I'm talking about the lack of sincerity related to this motion. What I'm saying, Mr. Chair, is that the Liberals are indecisive, they lack integrity, and there is a great amount of hypocrisy that concerns their party these days in Parliament, and it concerns this motion. As we said, all of a sudden this motion is being tabled, when over the last 13 years this was never an issue.

Monsieur Coderre was a cabinet minister. He sat in cabinet. Mr. Chair, I'd like Mr. Coderre to explain how it is that this was not an issue when he was sitting in cabinet. If he made this an issue, I'd like to know why it was never adopted by the Liberal Party. I'd like to know how Mr. Rothstein made it onto the Liberal short list when Mr. Coderre feels so adamant about this issue. How was that?

Monsieur Petit raised a very good point, that Mr. Rothstein.... Yes, we appointed him, but we chose him from the short list that the Liberals put together. So how is it that Mr. Coderre allowed that to happen? How did his colleagues allow that to happen?

Mr. Chair, this is where the hypocrisy comes in, where the lack of sincerity comes in. I'm saying that it actually shows itself again in the House every time we vote. This is not an isolated instance here. This is a pattern, and we're simply seeing it present itself here at the official languages committee.

It's my hope that when Monsieur Coderre takes the floor--because I know he's on the speaking list--he will actually answer these very valid questions I have. What did he do as a cabinet minister? Why was Mr. Rothstein on the Liberal short list when he is a unilingual judge? How did that happen? What did Mr. Coderre say about that publicly at the time? I'd like to know.

Merci.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

There are three speakers on the list: Mr. Chong, Mr. Coderre and Mr. Godin.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Chairman, I'll wait since it's my motion.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

That will enable us to recap. You can wrap up, then we'll vote, if there are no further comments.

So there remain Mr. Chong and Mr. Godin.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't have a problem with this motion, but because the government is opposed to it, I'll be voting against it. I think this motion highlights some of the problems we're having with our approach to the preservation of the French language on this continent. This is emblematic of the problem we have as parliamentarians on this committee and that governments have had in past decades.

We are having problems in our approach to ensuring that the French language continues to be a force on the North American continent because we are always looking at the symbolic, symptomatic issues as a way to preserve the French language. Well, that is not going to work.

We could pass this motion, and sure, the next Supreme Court justice appointed could be fluently bilingual. But people are deluding themselves if they think that this in fact is going to mean the preservation of the French language on this continent.

What we need to do as a committee is focus on the foundational aspects of why French is in decline on this continent. The fact is that our institutions, our schooling systems, and our law schools are not graduating bilingual graduates as a condition of graduation. We had a witness in front of us at the last committee meeting, a professor at the University of Moncton law school, who admitted that it's neither a condition for entry nor a condition for graduation to be fluent in both official languages. And this is a francophone school, in Moncton, in an officially bilingual province.

I say to you that time after time on this committee we focus on the symptoms of a much deeper problem. If we continue to focus on symptoms, we are not doing any service to the French language on this continent. The fact is, the number of francophones in this country is in decline vis-à-vis the overall population. The way we are going to address that is not through symbolic gestures or symbolic motions like this one that make francophones and other people feel very good that we are standing up for the preservation of the French language, when in fact that is a complete facade.

The fact is that unless we tackle some of the more fundamental issues that create this situation, we will not ensure the long-term survival of this language. The fundamental issue is that our law schools and our universities and our other educational institutions are not graduating bilingual students.

It goes to issues of hiring in the public service. We think that just demanding that they be bilingual at the EX-1 level or higher is the solution. I agree with those standards, and I agree that those standards should be maintained. But we always talk about what we need to do at the EX level or higher to ensure that the French fact remains. What we should be doing as well--and I think this is far more important--is going back to universities, going back to law schools, and going back to the public school system and asking why they are not producing the graduates we need for these positions, whether they be in the public service or in the Supreme Court.

I just want to put that forward to the committee today, because I think this motion is emblematic of our approach to a whole range of French language issues. I think we're approaching it from precisely the wrong end. We should be taking a look at and examining the foundational issues that cause these situations. Rather than asking why there is not a requirement to be bilingual to be a candidate for the Supreme Court, we should be asking the opposite question, which is why are we not graduating jurists in this country who have knowledge of both official languages. Why are law schools not indicating to their graduates that if they desire to have a career in the judiciary, they must be bilingual? Why are we not indicating that to them? Why are we not attacking it from the other end?

That's the point I want to put to the committee, because I think this motion today is just emblematic of a broader problem with the approach that we, not just as a committee but as governments and parliamentarians, have taken over the last number of years. It's an approach that looks at the symptoms of the problem rather than at the causes.

Just addressing the symptoms is window dressing, and it's not going to seriously address the deeper challenges that francophones face on this continent.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We now go to Mr. Godin.