Official Languages Committee on May 29th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Very well. Thank you, Ms. d'Auray.

We'll now suspend proceedings for a few minutes to enable technical services to prepare for the in camera portion.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We'll now resume public proceedings. Now that we've heard the audio tape, we'll proceed with the second part of our meeting, the exchange, questions and discussions with parliamentarians.

Without further ado, Mr. Denis Coderre, of the official opposition, will begin.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm willing to greet all three of you, but personally I think it was pointless to hear from the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the National Defence official today in view of the fact that, in my motion, I asked that the Coast Guard people come and talk to us about the situation in French. I also understand, in connection with staying in the water, that a bit of an effort is being made to drag in a red herring. One thing is certain: without talking about the content of the conversation between Ms. Aucoin and the Fisheries and Oceans Canada people, I repeat that I'm extremely concerned to see that the Coast Guard people, even in an emergency, record the remarks of people who want responses without informing them that their remarks are being recorded. I think we should take a serious look at that.

I was there too, and I also experienced some difficult moments with the families when I went there, on behalf of our leader and of the official opposition, to share that ordeal in a dignified manner with the families and people of the Magdalen Islands. I arrived there the previous Friday, so I don't intend to talk to you just about L'Acadien II.

Incidentally, I think the investigation should be independent. When the Coast Guard investigates itself, even though it has retained someone from the outside, I don't call that an independent investigation, and I hope all possible light will be shed on this incident. The Liberal Party of Canada would like a truly independent investigation.

However, I am very concerned. We are presented with statistics, but I don't believe it's appropriate to do that when you're talking about rescues and individuals. If only one person died or only one stricken family was unable to obtain services in their own language, that would already be too many.

Mr. Da Pont, a number of fishermen and hunters tell me they are forced to establish contact with other colleagues, other fishermen, in order to get services in French. Can you assure me that everything related to calls is really bilingual? It seems that what you're telling me and what actually happens in the field are two separate things.

[George Da Pont]

As I explained in my comments, 22 centres provide communication and marine traffic services. Nine of those centres provide bilingual services. Every person who occupies a position in those centres has the BBB bilingualism level in communication. Apart from that, as I explained, we've put procedures in place. If there is a call in French, it has to be immediately transferred to a centre that provides services—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

From what we were told, when people make a distress call, they are told to call Quebec. One man on a boat was suffering from phlebitis and waited four hours before getting services in French. When you're on a boat and the situation is serious, as far as I know, you don't know everything that's going on when you call Quebec. The Quebec people answering the call don't necessarily know what's going on. I would prefer to ensure that there are services in French in Halifax and that I'll be answered by something other than an answering machine. Instead, don't you think we should ensure that, on all shifts—emergency centres operate 24 hours a day—people aren't required, in an emergency, to walk around with a dictionary because they don't understand English.

[George Da Pont]

As I said, we think the procedure in place meets the needs. To my knowledge, language problems have never worsened any situation in search and rescue operations.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

So you're saying there's no problem. Can you confirm for me that, as a result of the situation of the families and the situation of L'Acadien II, they were required to transfer a bilingual Acadian from Fisheries and Oceans to the Halifax office because they weren't able to provide the services? Can you name that person for me, please?

[George Da Pont]

It was Tim Surette, who, at that time, was the acting director of marine services. He had previously worked at Fisheries and Oceans, but he took up his position at the Coast Guard a few months before the incident.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Do you agree with me that the families complained because they found it hard to get an answer in French? Instead of trying to get rid of them and have them come up against an answering machine... In this kind of situation, families deserve dignity and respect and to have someone answer them in their language.

[George Da Pont]

I deeply regret the way in which Ms. Aucoin learned about it on the news broadcast. That's definitely unacceptable. As the deputy minister explained, the normal procedure is that the police handle communications on the ground, for all kinds of reasons. In this case, there was obviously a problem, and I deeply regret it.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

What are you going to do so that this doesn't happen again? Under your mandate, you're responsible for managing resources. From now on, are you committed to providing adequate resources so that French Canadians, Magdalen Islanders, Acadians, and others, no longer feel like second-class citizens?

[George Da Pont]

I don't believe we provide second-class services. We'll definitely change the procedure to ensure the communication is made before altering a search.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Pardon me, sir; we can come back to that.

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

We'll now go to Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Here's my first question, Mr. Da Pont. Logically, one can get the impression—this is written in your documents—that one of the essential aspects of a good search and rescue operation is communication. Communication means comprehension. In that sense, were you able to communicate adequately, both during the search and rescue operations and in informing the families, particularly that of the young man who is still missing and whose mother is Ms. Aucoin? I don't know how to judge that communication. What do you think about that?

[George Da Pont]

You asked two or three different questions.

The services offered at the Marine Communications and Traffic Services Centres are bilingual, at level B. I believe you're asking me whether that level is adequate in the case of search and rescue operations. We think it is because, in the context of those operations, few questions will be part of the communication. We've only received one complaint in the past five years concerning the services provided by the centres, and language problems have never been an issue.

Your other question concerns the family. I accept the fact that communication was not acceptable in this case. However, in a case such as this one, it is normally the police on the ground who handle communication regarding the most delicate matters. That's what we had planned, but unfortunately that's not what was done. There was a breakdown in the process, and I accept that.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Do you agree with me that it would be normal, when a good organization delegates to or asks another party to do a job, to check that the work is done? You mentioned that it was up to Sûreté du Québec to inform the family that the search had been abandoned, but did anyone check to see that Sûreté du Québec had done the job? Obviously not.

[George Da Pont]

No, not in this case. It isn't a problem that has previously occurred.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Do you understand that it's not normal? It's already shameful and it makes no sense that the family was not made aware, but it's not normal either, it's not logical, when you delegate, not to check to see whether or not the work is done.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Chairman, in this case, there was a situation that had not previously occurred. Normally, when transactions are conducted with the police department, whether it's the RCMP or Sûreté du Québec, generally, and to our knowledge, those transactions, those communications are done normally. In this case, there was a breakdown—that's absolutely clear—and we unfortunately learned of it when Ms. Aucoin placed her call. That's why there was a hesitation on the respondent's part, because normally—and I note that a tragic situation is obviously never a normal situation—that communication should have been made. We subsequently contacted Sûreté du Québec to try to get a clear understanding of why there had been this breakdown in communication, which led us to examine our procedures to determine whether, before stopping a search activity, we should check to see whether, when a message has been sent or forwarded to a police department, the communication has actually been made.

As Mr. Da Pont explained, the search and rescue activity ends when the rescue function is completed and when it is no longer possible to think that there will in fact be a rescue. So, at that point, the activity is one of searching for a body, and that's when the transfer is done.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

A number of things come to my mind. First, those who are used to doing search and rescue are the people from National Defence and the Coast Guard. It isn't the Sûreté du Québec people who conduct searches at sea. As you will readily understand, if you delegate to another party the task of explaining to a family that the search has been abandoned, a series of questions will be raised. People will ask why it is being abandoned, what has been done, who long it has gone on, what measures have been taken and what new steps will be taken.

All the Sûreté du Québec person can tell the family is that the search has been abandoned—that's it, that's all—because that person won't know much more about it. Understand that I would also like you to be able to consider what it really means when you delegate. If you delegate a power, that's one thing, but if you simply delegate communication, should the information provided be full and complete? In this case, it definitely wasn't full and complete.

The family would have known sooner rather than learn about it in the media. I had the opportunity to speak with Ms. Aucoin a few minutes after the hearing we had earlier. She was angry, disappointed and distressed because the rescue had been called off. I'm telling you that because it's not easy simply to say that you're delegating communication and that the matter stops there. I think you have to go further than that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Please answer very briefly, Ms. d'Auray.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Once again, according to the standards and procedures, I can tell you that the information is communicated to the police, whether it be Sûreté du Québec, the RCMP or another police department. They send people who are able to inform people and deal with these delicate situations. It is very difficult—and that's why we act in this manner—to have a telephone conversation with people in these kinds of situations. And if it were done by people at our communication centres, that's the way it would be. That's why we work with the local police departments so that these communications are done more directly and so that support can be given to these people in a situation of distress.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Blais.

We'll continue so as to give every parliamentarian equal time.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, on behalf of the New Democratic Party and myself, I would like to offer my condolences to the families of the fishermen who perished on L'Acadien II. As the member for Acadie—Bathurst, in northeastern New Brunswick, I know that many fishermen go to sea every day. We've had the misfortune to lose a number of them. I can understand the situation of the families, particularly since we've just had a tragedy in Bathurst. Seven young people and a teacher lost their lives in January.

However, we must keep in mind why we are holding this meeting today, which is to study bilingualism within the Canadian Coast Guard. The questions concerning L'Acadien II have already been asked, and I would like us now to focus on bilingualism. This morning, you submitted an accurate retranscription of the conversation that took place between Mr. Aucoin's mother and the Coast Guard. Do you agree on that?

We asked you to appear in order to tell us about bilingualism within the Coast Guard. However, we read the following in the French version of the transcript:

Mother - Bonjour vous parlez français? JRCC Watch Officer - Oui

The document that you've submitted to us isn't in French; it's a translation of an English document. That simple fact shows a real lack of respect for the official languages. You dared appear before the Official Languages Committee with a document the French version of which does not even contain the word “mère” and in which the officer's title hasn't been translated. I would like you to take note of that.

Furthermore, Mr. Da Pont, you mentioned services provided where numbers warrant, and you mentioned a figure of 5%. I believe you said that numbers in St. John's, Newfoundland, didn't warrant such services and that people had to call from Quebec. Is that correct?

[George Da Pont]

In fact, no. The St. John's marine rescue sub-centre transfers French calls to Port-aux-Basques where there is a bilingual marine communications and traffic services centre.