Evidence of meeting #16 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was manitoba.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ben Rempel  Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba
Elizabeth Mills  Executive Director, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia
Joëlle Désy  Nova Scotia Nominee Program Officer, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia
Colin Lemoine  Policy and Program Analyst, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

I call to order the 16th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

This morning, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we continue our study of immigration as a development tool in official language minority communities.

We have as witnesses members of the Government of Manitoba.

I would first like to welcome Mr. Ben Rempel, who is the assistant deputy minister, immigration division, Department of Labour and Immigration. As well, we have with us Mr. Colin Lemoine, policy and program analyst, immigration division, Department of Labour and Immigration.

Welcome to our committee.

Also with us are representatives of the Government of Nova Scotia. We have the director general of the Office of Immigration, Ms. Elizabeth Mills, and Ms. Joëlle Désy, who is an officer with the Nominee Program of Nova Scotia, also with the Office of Immigration. Welcome to our committee, ladies.

Without further ado, I invite the representatives of the Government of Manitoba to make their opening statement. They will be followed by representatives of the Nova Scotia government. We will then hear questions from members. Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Ben Rempel Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Good morning, everyone.

Thanks for inviting us to present before this committee. We have some good things to report from Manitoba. You have a copy of our presentation in front of you so I won't go over it verbatim, but I will provide a high-level summary.

I am here with my colleague Colin Lemoine, who can assist me in our other official language, if that's a preference for anybody. He's a policy analyst who is a key point person on our francophone initiative right now.

I am joined also by Lei Wang, who is joining us in Ottawa for meetings with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, our key partners in all of these efforts and part of our employment supports area for immigrants.

Just go back, with a little bit of the context that you have in front of you, the targets that we've set for Manitoba--7% for francophone immigration--are ambitious, but Manitoba is no stranger to ambitious targets.

Much of what we accomplish in the province in the area of immigration is on the basis of our partnership with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Our bilateral agreement, the Canada-Manitoba Immigration Agreement, has really helped us through our provincial nominee programs and our devolved settlement agreement to accomplish the achievements we've made in immigration over the last decade.

I want to talk specifically about our francophone initiative, but I would like to put it in the context of a province that has moved on from 1998-99, or that area, as an immigration have-not province. We weren't on the radar for much of Canada, and certainly for much of the world, as an immigration destination of choice.

On the basis of this very creative and dynamic partnership, we have actually made Manitoba one of the premier immigration destinations in Canada, again, by setting ambitious targets that we have been able to meet: 10,000 landings by 2006 and a renewed target of 20,000 landings by 2016. Part of our challenge with the ambitious targets we've set for francophone immigration is that, although we made significant gains as our overall immigration totals increased, we need to catch up on the percentages a little.

That's the context for our immigration strategy in general.

Of course, we haven't done this by ourselves. I referenced the strong partnership we have with the Government of Canada. Key players in this have been the community stakeholders, with whom we work very closely. The presentation you have in front of you provides a list of the key agencies that we work with throughout our francophone communities, not just in Winnipeg, but throughout the province of Manitoba and our regions.

We are working towards a proportion now wherein 75% to 80% of our immigration is coming through our provincial nominee program and 30% of those provincial nominees are settling in regions outside of our capital area, outside of Winnipeg. We don't yet have a similar distribution with our francophone immigration, which is still predominantly urban. Nevertheless, our regional communities are active players in this strategy, through organizations like CDEM, which is le Conseil de développement économique du Manitoba.

I'm going to speak a little bit about the promotion and recruitment side of things and then about the area that is more important, which is what we do to assist people when and after they arrive.

Our promotion and recruitment campaigns have focused on la Francophonie in general, with certain countries being naturally more predominant than others, but certainly, no country with a potential francophone population interested in migrating to Manitoba would not be of interest to us.

We have worked very closely with our key partner, la Société franco-manitobaine, in promotion and recruitment missions. They are also a key settlement partner. The organizations listed in our brief--CDEM, ANIM, and so on--are affiliated with the SFM. We've participated with them in recruitment initiatives in France, Belgium, and West Africa. I guess that the populations of interest to us in many ways could be, broadly speaking, looked at in three categories.

International students, through the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, have been a key element of the immigration strategy: the transition of international students to permanent residence status through our provincial nominee program. The international student movement has been an important component of our immigration strategy under the provincial nominee program.

Manitoba was the first PNP to introduce a category for international students to allow them to transition from temporary to permanent status based on securing employment after graduation. We continue to benefit from that movement to Manitoba. The Collège, as our largest and very successful francophone university, is no exception. In fact, in some ways I think the proportions coming from that institution are larger than others. There's a very successful movement coming out of that institution, largely with origins in West Africa--Senegal, Côte d'Ivoire, Burkina Faso, and Mali.

We have made visits to our embassy partners in those regions to try to raise the profile a bit of our community and our institutions. One of the challenges when you are a province that's not recognized as a first choice or logical destination for francophone immigration is to put yourself on the map, to show that there are destinations outside of Quebec where it is possible to live and educate your children in French. We feel that Manitoba certainly is a very solid destination in that category, so we have partnered with those institutions in raising our profile somewhat in those target countries.

Other key partners in these efforts have been the embassy in Paris, the visa section, and of course Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Events like Destination Canada and the funds that flow to those initiatives from the federal government have been very important for all provinces to provide a platform to promote ourselves as destinations, again, for potential immigrants from France, Belgium, and francophone-speaking areas of Europe, to consider as an option. It's different from what Quebec offers, which is obviously the first choice for many francophone immigrants, but it's an environment where you, your family, and your children can work and live in both official languages. Certainly, through our immersion programs in schools and post-secondary institutions, you can educate your children and live in French.

I think those promotion and recruitment efforts are still very much, while successful, a work in progress. I've taken the opportunity of being here in Ottawa to meet with my colleagues, both international and local, in Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and to think how we might come up with new strategies and initiatives. I'd be happy to talk about those a little more.

We've achieved what we've achieved in Manitoba by putting ourselves on the map and generally by taking new approaches: partnering with communities and institutions, federal governments, and international offices overseas to do things in ways that weren't done before, while maintaining, of course, the integrity and quality assurance standards that immigration requires. For us to continue and to be more successful in attracting francophone immigrants to destinations outside of Quebec, we're going to continue to need that creative and innovative approach to partnership.

Immigration often tends to focus on the attraction and the numbers side of the equation, but we feel that an essential part of our success in Manitoba has been what we do with individuals at arrival and after arrival through our settlement programs. We fund a wide variety of language training, settlement and integration programs, and employment support programs for newcomers, and we feel that is a key part of our success in retaining immigrants.

One of the things about the provincial nominee program--and it's important to remember that it distinguishes us a little bit from our colleagues further west--is that it's not based on a temporary foreign worker movement. We select our potential candidates on something much closer to a human capital model, something closer to, I suppose, the philosophy of the federal immigration program, on which we based on own selection criteria. This means that most individuals are coming without pre-arranged employment. We do have a temporary foreign worker component, but 70% of our intake is made up of individuals or families coming to us without pre-arranged employment.

The success we have achieved in terms of the very high labour market participation rates of immigrants is among the highest in Canada. We have one of the highest retention levels in the provincial nominee programs. It is in the 80% range, give or take, depending on the state of the economy. Nevertheless, it's consistently high. It's based on the interventions that we make with individuals at and after arrival.

Our francophone immigration is no exception. We work very closely with our partners to ensure, through L'Accueil francophone and other agencies, that people are welcomed at arrival, receive guidance and orientation to the programs they need to begin the early stages of settlement, and then, of course, are connected through to language training and employment opportunities.

The francophone component--and I should emphasize this--is part of our bilateral agreement with the federal government, which was renewed in 2003 and is in the process of being renewed now, to make francophone immigration a key priority. I sometimes forget to mention that part of our agreement, because we would do it anyway. It's an important part of what we do in Manitoba.

It's an important reflection of our community composition. It's an important strategy and priority for our government itself. So while it's been an active and successful partnership with the federal government, and we partner in the funding of some of these agencies, we feel that we have achieved significant results so far, and some of those numbers are sketched out in the presentation.

What I guess energizes us in the division and in the communities--I met with a number of my partners before coming here--is the work we are still doing, the work we have done such the Destination Canada job fair in November, for which a large team made up of not just government agencies but all community agencies, urban and rural, went to France to interview families, to tell them about Manitoba, and to tell them about our francophone communities.

Right now, we're looking at a very successful result of that. Thirty families who had previously probably not had Manitoba, St. Boniface, or our francophone communities on their radar or even on their maps, were interested in Canada and are now submitting applications. Some of them have been approved and many have made visits to our province.

It's that kind of approach: working on the ground in countries where people are interested in Canada, convincing them that Manitoba is a destination of choice, and then engaging with them consistently throughout, from the time of selection, through arrival, and afterwards, to ensure the success of their settlement.

I suspect that I'm out of time. I kind of ran over a bit, so I'll stop there. I'm happy to answer your questions.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you for sharing this great story.

We'll now move on to our guest from Nova Scotia.

9:15 a.m.

Elizabeth Mills Executive Director, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the parliamentary committee. Thank you so much for inviting us to present to you this morning.

I'd like to introduce Joëlle Désy. Joëlle is one of my colleagues at the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration. She is our designated francophone staff within the Office of Immigration.

Thank you, Joëlle, for joining me.

Like Ben, I'm just going to put everything in context for you. I'll perhaps compare and contrast Nova Scotia a little bit with Manitoba to give you a sense of where we are with respect to Manitoba.

Nova Scotia's population is under a million. Of that, about 35,000 people are individuals whose mother tongue is French. They would be of Acadian descent. Of those 35,000 people, about two-thirds live in very rural parts of Nova Scotia. That gives you a little bit of context about our population.

You may know as well that Nova Scotia's population is older than that of any other province in the rest of Canada, so immigration is very important to Nova Scotia for a variety of reasons: labour market needs, population, cultural diversity and, of course, French language maintenance as well.

Unlike in Manitoba, the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration did not begin our immigration efforts in earnest until 2005. Until then, our provincial position was that immigrants come to the province--that's good. They stay--that's good. But there was no policy direction that really supported this initiative.

That changed in 2005, with the development of a strategy and the opening of the Office of Immigration. We are a small office compared with Manitoba's, but I will say that we were very fortunate, in that when we opened the Office of Immigration, we were hosted by Manitoba. They shared with us many of their lessons learned and their excellent programs and excellent ideas. I will say that the Manitoba is a beacon for the other provinces. They have been bold in their immigration strategy and they have been successful because of that. So we are following the game and following what they're doing in many ways.

I also want to say that we, like Manitoba, have an agreement with the Government of Canada, with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. They are the principal partner in immigration, of course, and they provide the lion's share of funding for settlement programming.

Unlike Manitoba, however, we do not have a devolved agreement. Sot he Nova Scotia division of Citizenship and Immigration Canada allocates funding directly to community-based organizations for the programming they do.

Now, we do have some good news. In 2003, our base year for immigration numbers, we had about 1,400 people coming to Nova Scotia. In 2008 we were up to over 2,650. That's an increase of about 79%. We think we're going in the right direction, but our numbers are very modest, and certainly modest when compared with Manitoba's. But we believe that we have to set the ground in order to have a successful immigration program.

In addition to doubling our landings, we have also improved our retention rates. In 2003, the 2001 census data told us that our retention rate was about 40%. That was really embarrassing, but I'm proud to tell you that in the census period of 2006, our retention rate went to 64%. So we're delighted with both of those trends, but we also see that we have a long way to go.

Like Manitoba, we have an immigration agreement, and an annex, or part of that agreement, which allows us to also have a provincial nominee program. Unlike Manitoba, however, our nominee program represents about a third of all the landings. Manitoba's was about 70% to 80%, you said, but we're at about a third, so we see the opportunity to optimize our nominee program further.

We have also developed partnerships with the local community organizations, and certainly with the local francophone Acadian organizations. That partnership has done us very well. We provide funding to those organizations for initiatives they're undertaking, as does Citizenship and Immigration Canada—and I believe they access other sources of funding as well. So we have a partnership with them.

We have also participated in immigration destination fairs, Destination Canada, in Paris, France, and in Morocco and other parts of the world. We started to do that only in 2005, so we are starting to see the fruits of those immigration fairs. They're starting to have a return on investment for us in Nova Scotia.

We do have one major settlement organization in Nova Scotia. It has recently changed its name. It's called the Immigrant Settlement and Integration Services of Nova Scotia, ISIS. This organization, though small, is I think a very effective settlement organization. They provide programming in a number of areas: settlement, language training, and labour market attachment, etc. Those programs and services are available in French to all francophone immigrants who come to the province of Nova Scotia; they provide a significant part of their programming in that regard.

With regard to our nominee program, which is our major tool to attract immigrants, and also with selection, you have an opportunity to also affect your retention rates. So if we are very effective in selection--helping to nominate those individuals who are likely to come to Nova Scotia, are likely to stay in Nova Scotia, and likely to succeed--that will certainly improve our retention rates. Our nominee program is our principal tool in that regard.

As I said, it represents about a third of our landings. We have nominated probably under 2,000 people at this point, but of the 2,600 landings last year, about 229 individuals identified that, of the official languages, French was their sole spoken language and/or bilingual language. I think about 27 of them identified French as their official language that they could speak; the remaining 202 said bilingual.

So our numbers, as I said, were modest, but we feel that we are working in the right direction to attract more immigrants. As I said, we are setting the groundwork to do that with our partnerships with our Acadian and francophone organizations and with the Université Sainte-Anne. But we also have in Nova Scotia a French-language Services Act, and this act ensures that individuals have access to services in French.

Our office of immigration is committed to that as well. We participate on national committees and we also participate in a local francophone immigration round table that is looking at developing strategies to recruit and retain more immigrants.

I see my time is running out so I'll conclude on the development of a new strategy. Our first strategy is from 2005, so it's about to end. We're now in the process of developing a new immigration strategy for Nova Scotia.

We've consulted with our francophone partners on that and they have been very clear on the vision that they see for Nova Scotia with regard to attracting francophone immigrants. Their recommendations to us include improved pre-arrival information on Acadian and francophone communities and services being made available to new and prospective francophone immigrants. Like Ben says, once we start working with immigrants overseas, we need to begin working with them while they are abroad to fully educate them on what is available for them in Nova Scotia.

Also, our francophone organizations would like to provide direct access to settlement, labour market and language training delivery through francophone organizations. Currently, most of our settlement and language training is done through ISIS. Our francophone organizations would like there to be a separate organization--or organizations--that would provide those services in French. They would be French organizations. Finally, they would like the creation of a francophone welcoming centre that will provide these services.

These are the recommendations they've put forward, both to Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the federal government, and to the provincial government. We are working with them to consider if and how this could go forward, but we are very hopeful that our partnerships with these organizations, with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and with the good friends we have from other provinces will help us to be very effective in the future with our francophone immigration and our immigration strategy overall.

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Ms. Mills.

We'll now start our first round with Monsieur Bélanger.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, all, for being here.

Thank you very much, Mr. Rempel and Ms. Mills, for your presentations.

Five minutes is a very short time. I will ask a few questions, and if there's not enough time to answer them, perhaps colleagues will pick them up, or you can send the information in through the clerk, if you don't mind, so it can be shared.

If I recall from the documents that I've read, 7% for Manitoba and 9% for Nova Scotia are the targets for the francophone element of your immigration. Is that correct?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Ben Rempel

Yes, it's 7%.

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

Elizabeth Mills

I believe it's 4% for Nova Scotia.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Okay. I'll look it up later. My documents say 9%.

The 7%, you state from Manitoba, is the percentage you figure you'd lose, so that's... I want to congratulate you for setting that target. I wish we could set a similar target nationally. Is it 7% of 20,000? Is that the number? Have I read it correctly?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Ben Rempel

The 20,000 is our 2016 landings target from all categories. That would include the economic, humanitarian, and family categories and 7% would be the proportion of that.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Starting from what year?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Ben Rempel

Well, we're in the process. So if we were meeting our goals, last year... For 2009, for example, we don't have official numbers yet, but let's say we had 12,000 people landing. If we're meeting our goals, that would be 7% of 12,000.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

So 20,000 per year is your target.

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Ben Rempel

Yes, that would be our target.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Okay. That's good enough for me.

I'll switch to Nova Scotia.

Ms. Désy, I would be curious to know whether in your opinion the Government of Nova Scotia is going to recommend what is being asked for by the FANE.

9:30 a.m.

Joëlle Désy Nova Scotia Nominee Program Officer, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

You are referring to the recommendations Ms. Mills mentioned at the end, is that right?

The Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse is presently holding discussions with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. The discussions we held with that organization took place in March. Discussions are ongoing in our office as well. The FANE applied for financial assistance as it does every year, but the decision has not yet been made as to the exact amount that will be allocated to it this year.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

This would be the government's decision to make, but does the public service of Nova Scotia intend to issue a favourable recommendation?

9:30 a.m.

Nova Scotia Nominee Program Officer, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

Joëlle Désy

I can't answer that question.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Madam Mills, would you be willing to answer that?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

Elizabeth Mills

I will answer. Actually, this morning, Joëlle and I discussed this. We thought this would be a question that you might ask.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

No....

9:30 a.m.

A voice

Oh, oh!

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Office of Immigration, Government of Nova Scotia

Elizabeth Mills

You may know that our government is now in financial restraint and has a budget that is going back to a balanced budget, so at this point we are in a very tight fiscal position, but I would say that our government has allocated new moneys to immigration, which it has not done for each department. I think that speaks to the commitment that our government has expressed and is honouring with regard to supporting immigration efforts.

But I do not perceive that we will have significant new dollars in the future. What we will need to do is have a very close look at the outcomes that we are enjoying from the funding that is being allocated to date, to determine whether the outcomes that we need are the outcomes that we are getting. If not, we have two options: one, to encourage a different way of service delivery, or two, a reallocation of funding. So--

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

That's fair enough. It wouldn't be appropriate to push further.

In the time remaining, I would like to know for Manitoba... I've heard and read that the refugee numbers have increased. However, I had occasion to chat recently with a representative of the Congolese community, and there is a problem. I just want to flag it for you. The problem is that because of the age of those refugees, they are quite often assumed to have a certain level of education and are therefore put at a certain level in the system. Yet they can't cope, and therefore they tend to sort of décrocher, to drop out, and then get into a downward spiral.

Would you be open, Mr. Rempel, to having whichever appropriate department--or school board, I suppose--take a look at this so that, indeed, we catch that situation at the outset and not create a situation down the road?

9:30 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration Division, Department of Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Ben Rempel

You're exactly right. We are very much engaged with our departments on that issue. It is a challenge.

The presentation mentioned the significant proportion to date of our current francophone immigrants who have come through the humanitarian category, most often from Africa. When individuals come from a war-torn background, with an interrupted education, and so forth, it is a challenge to try to fit them into the school system.

There is a type of prevailing pedagogical philosophy that says it's best to put people of similar age with cohorts, but it sometimes doesn't work because they've missed several years of schooling and so on. It is a significant problem that we want to engage more successfully on, through a couple of avenues that we're looking at.

One is that inside the Manitoba government we recognized that when we started small, everything that had to do with immigration could be located within one department. It came down to me and my colleagues or my predecessor dealing with them. For success in immigration, and with the support we had at the grassroots level, we needed to give a message to our colleagues in other departments that in many ways it's everybody's job to successfully settle immigrants.

We have a very successful growth strategy initiative that was launched by our previous immigration minister, Nancy Allan. It's an ongoing strategic partnership with other departments on education and training, and with the French language secretariat and so on, to address these problems. It can often become localized within one department and people then say it's not their mandate. We need to have a shared mandate. I think that's what's been recognized in Manitoba.

On the other piece, I think we need to involve Citizenship and Immigration Canada more on the front end.