Evidence of meeting #51 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Liseanne Forand  Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada
Charles Nixon  Assistant Deputy Minister, Citizen Service Branch, Service Canada
Dominique La Salle  Director General and Co-Champion of Official Languages, Seniors and Pension Policy, Service Canada
Gina Rallis  Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

9:50 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

We can provide information on the costs of the community service offices as well as the replacement services that will be provided. But the change we effected from this March to next March had to do with contracts with service providers. The objective was not to save money; the objective was to improve service, to provide people in those communities with the same level of service that Canadians in other communities receive.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I'll take your answer at its best blush and say you didn't intend to save money, but I'm guessing that is one of the objectives when you use the word “efficient”.

I will say this. In the communities, there is great push-back to the idea of these local service providers being terminated, because they knew the community best. It's probably why, unless you can re-answer the question with more meat on the bone, you didn't communicate and consult with any of the cultural or societal organizations in Atlantic Canada. You did not consult with the SNA or the SANB in New Brunswick or their counterparts in Nova Scotia. I've been interrupting you, and I apologize, but so far you've only dealt with some of the regional economic development agency groups in, for instance, Nova Scotia. But across Atlantic Canada, what you're doing to rural areas, and particularly to francophone areas, is not going over well. You're not enhancing your image with respect to providing bilingual services or rural services.

What would you say to that? I think the government should be aware of this.

9:50 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

We're confident that the people in these communities will get to know the outreach service that we provide and will appreciate the enhanced service they will receive. I can understand that they're familiar with the service providers that they have in their community, and that they're familiar with what they've experienced in the past, but we are confident that we will be able to demonstrate that the services they receive through the new approach will in fact be greater than the services they received before.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

Thank you, Mr. Murphy, Madame.

Your turn, Mr. Gourde.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Earlier we were discussing the unilingual Service Canada outlets in the Atlantic region. I am a francophone. If I come to a service outlet, would the front-line employees, the ones I speak to, be able to answer me in French without any problems because they are bilingual?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

If you come to a unilingual Service Canada outlet and you speak to the person behind the counter in French, let's call her Ms. Gaudreault, she will be ready, willing and able to speak to you in French. However, she will also make sure to tell you that you are in a unilingual service centre and to show you the place or the telephone number where you can access bilingual service.

She will tell you that simply because she does not have all the support that she needs to provide you with French language service equal in quality to the service that would be provided by someone who has been trained to provide service to the public in French. Your questions might have to do with employment insurance or with the Canada Pension Plan. The reason is simply that she does not have all the necessary support, she is not set up in the same way as an employee at a bilingual service centre.

However, clearly, as a matter of courtesy, she will speak to you in French, she will help you in French, she will provide you with the French language documents that she has available. In addition, she will also be expected to tell you where the nearest bilingual Service Canada outlet is located, or the telephone number you need to reach it.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

You mention support. However, if I go there to get a form to apply for a social insurance number for one of my children, it does not take a great deal of support. Does she really have to tell me all that anyway?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

The person has to tell you that to make sure that you are informed. If you simply go there to get a form or to ask a simple question, she will answer you in French. However, because you must be informed, she will also have to tell you that, as a person who wants to be served in the other official language, you can also have fully bilingual service. She will also tell you where this service is available to you.

For example, if you come to the office because you want to know whether you are eligible for employment insurance, it might get a bit more complicated. In that case, the person will not have any supervision in French, she will not have the organizational support she will need to give you the best possible service, equal in quality to the service you are entitled to receive, in the language of your choice.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

So your policy is to serve francophones to the best of your ability. However, even if you can serve them, you tell them that you cannot, and you send them somewhere else.

9:55 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

As a matter of courtesy, the policy is to serve francophone clients in French, they should be helped in that language, but they should also be given information on the availability of completely bilingual services, equal in quality to all the bilingual services offered anywhere in Canada.

So they will tell you where the nearest bilingual office of Service Canada is located, or you will be offered the option of speaking to an agent over the telephone. For instance, if you have a complicated question regarding the Canada Pension Plan, they will give you the telephone number that you can call to get information in French on the Canada Pension Plan.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Have the unions that represent the front-line workers taken any position on the matter?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

We are continuously consulting the unions regarding the designation of bilingual and unilingual positions, the staffing of these positions and every other employment-related question. Also, whenever there is a change, we consult them in advance.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

They have not taken a position. You tell me that you consult them, but do they...

9:55 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

We consult them, they have a position, but it often depends on the situation and the circumstances of the moment. Sometimes, the union can take a position, it might want to see some kind of change. But it depends on the circumstances. We deal with it on a case by case basis.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Do you think that anything can be improved in the system of unilingual positions and services?

10 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

We are trying to find ways to offer the best possible service. We are working in compliance with the Official Languages Act whose provisions and regulations require us to do things like being properly equipped.

However, in that context, we still want to organize our policies and our approaches so as to serve the people as well as we can, be they anglophones in Quebec or francophones in other regions. This is why we have implemented this approach in those places where the legislation does not require us to have a bilingual office. So we have unilingual offices to serve the people in those specific places. However, we want to make sure that all our front-line agents are trained to give the best possible service, in an equal and fair way, to people who want to speak in either of the official languages.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

To conclude, I will be waiting for your suggestions regarding policies. We would like to receive them, please.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

Please send the documents to the committee clerk so that everyone can have a copy, Madam.

Mr. Nadeau, you have the floor.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

After what you just said, Ms. Forand...

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

By the way, the signal that you hear indicates that the House is beginning to sit.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

No need to panic.

10 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

10 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

After what you just said, Ms. Forand, let me make a suggestion to Ms. Finley, the minister in charge of Service Canada and to whom you are accountable, and also to all my colleagues, the members of this committee.

For the federal election in 1993, I registered at an Elections Canada office in Saskatoon. Believe me, I went there and I registered in French. I was probably the only one to do that. I had just arrived in the province. No one who had greeted me spoke French. Then they sat me down at a desk with a telephone. The person in charge sat at another desk and called somewhere on her phone. Then my phone rang and I was able to register by telephone.

Just now, Mr. Gourde asked a question and Mr. Godin, Mr. Murphy and Ms. Boucher followed up on it. I know that you are not the one who drafted the policy that we are discussing, but I find it entirely unacceptable that someone could be received by Ms. Gaudreault, to use our previous example, and be told that she cannot possibly give him service in French even if she speaks French herself, and that he must go somewhere else, who knows how many kilometres away, simply because in her office things are done in English only.

An office being English or French is already a problem, because we are in Canada. The telephone service should be offered on site so that someone who has just arrived in the region could also fill out his form with help from an office employee. If the client cannot do this with a human being in front of him, he should be able to do it with the help of someone at the other end of a phone line who will do everything possible to make sure the client gets the service he is requesting. That can be an application for employment insurance, for a social insurance card or a passport, or any other service that Service Canada is supposed to provide. That is what we should do instead of telling the client to go back to his vehicle and to drive who knows how many kilometres to another office because the employees cannot serve him in his language on the spot. I hear people around me saying things like that.

Is it possible to offer this kind of service through a three-way telephone system? When I registered at the Elections Canada office, the supervisor, who was also on the telephone, did not understand French. I understand English but I wanted to be served in French. This is my right. If we do not use that right, we lose it; it's as simple as that. Assimilation being what it is, especially in predominantly anglophone regions like Saskatchewan—although it is also true in the Pontiac—if we do not use our French, we lose our rights. So the Service Canada employee translated my applications for the supervisor and vice versa. Everyone was happy. When the exercise was over, and it lasted for about 15 or 20 minutes, certainly less than an hour, I was registered with Elections Canada and I could vote in the 1993 elections.

Could you see developing that kind of mechanism instead of asking people to go to another office?

10 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

Thank you for your question. I should have mentioned that. Currently, we are conducting a pilot project of exactly that type at 10 unilingual sites in Canada. It began in May 2010 and will continue until May 2011. The pilot project is to test interpretation by telephone. The system is called CanTalk. It is just as you describe, a three-way conversation: the Service Canada officer, the customer and the interpreter. The interpretation service is provided by telephone. This year, once this 12-month pilot projet is over, we will be able to assess the results of this service. We may consider broadening the use of the service if the results warrant. Implementing the service in 10 centres is not expensive: it costs us $13,000 for one year.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you for your answer. Forget the $13,000. Either a right exists or it does not. If we have to measure rights in dollars,…

let's all speak English, be American, be proud, and have the American flag with that.