Evidence of meeting #54 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Dicerni  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Bill James  Director General, Human Resources Branch, Department of Industry
Mitch Davies  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Science and Innovation Sector, Department of Industry
Liseanne Forand  Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada
Gina Rallis  Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you.

I thank all witnesses. Good day, Ms. Forand.

Mr. Chairman, you just stole my punch line. I wanted to provide some comfort to Ms. Forand, who is having a rough go of it.

Ms. Forand, I did indeed want to say that the committee would be interested in receiving the organizational chart.

I consider myself insightful enough, but this morning, I am having some real difficulty following. That said, I am trying to understand. Obviously, the Standing Committee on Official Languages ensures application of the act and wants that to occur as smoothly as possible. I think that the Atlantic region is rather well defined in terms of bilingualism. We all know that New Brunswick is the only Canadian province that is officially bilingual. In my opinion, that is not a matter of debate. However, it is part of a set of provinces that are designated bilingual. It is a region which is more unilingual anglophone than bilingual. I think that is a matter of fact.

When it comes to meeting needs in both languages, your department has an extraordinary responsibility. We certainly hope to receive your organizational chart rather soon so that we may gain a better understanding of what you are trying to explain to us, and that we are not understanding. For the time being, I will focus on something else.

Mr. Godin alluded earlier to staff changes that had taken place over the last few months or the last few weeks, for obvious reasons. Some staff members have retired, others changed jobs etc., which is perfectly normal. I would like to know whether, when people change jobs, those positions are already designated bilingual, and if so, whether it would be considered normal for the people holding those positions to be replaced by people who are not bilingual? Ms. Rallis may answer.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

Thank you.

As Ms. Forand indicated, we have 25 senior positions within the entire...

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

In the entire Atlantic region.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

Ten of them...

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

... are designated bilingual?

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

No. Out of 25 positions, 10 are in New Brunswick.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Very well.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

Moreover, 60% of these 25 positions are designated bilingual and respect...

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

So that would be approximately 18 positions.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

Our goal is to increase this percentage to 80%.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

All right.

Ms. Forand, that is good news.

10:35 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

As you can see, I am trying to be generous and be faithful to my name.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

I did not give a comprehensive answer to your question. There is another issue. Are bilingual positions ones where new hires must meet the requirements?

With respect to hiring, 96% of all bilingual positions are imperative staffing. That means that people must be bilingual to be appointed to those positions.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

They absolutely must be bilingual.

You referred to 96%, 96% of 25 positions. Let's speak in absolute terms, instead of percentages. If I understand correctly, approximately 21 or 22 out of 25 positions must absolutely be bilingual.

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Human Resources Services Branch, Service Canada

Gina Rallis

I can tell you that 96% of bilingual positions are filled by bilingual staff.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

If we are quick, Ms. Forand may be able to answer me. When an executive is appointed on an acting basis, must the acting position be occupied by a bilingual individual when the position is designated bilingual?

10:35 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

Yes. A person who takes an acting position must meet the language requirements.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Ms. Forand, as a result of this confusion and of the reaction to your statement before the committee, especially in the Atlantic region, do you consider yourself very close to the key players in your department, your department's executives in the Atlantic region? If so, do you think that these people tell you really what is going on, what the real experience is on the ground in terms of the language issue?

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

You have about 20 seconds, Ms. Forand.

10:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

Yes, I feel close to the managers in the Atlantic region and yes, they are very honest with me about the concerns that are important to people in that region. As I said at the beginning, I apologize for the confusion that these discussions created among the employees. I am seeking to clarify it all to the extent I am able to.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

Thank you.

10:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Service Canada

Liseanne Forand

I want to do so as quickly and as permanently as possible.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mauril Bélanger

Thank you very much.

Mr. Godin, the floor is yours.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In all the information that you will be sending us in order to try and explain things to us, could you clarify what the change is? Before this, each province was separate. Now, the administrative structure covers the entire Atlantic region. What is the difference between the two situations? Who reports to whom?

Why did Jim Wood say that he was replaced by Doug Johnson? Why Doug Johnson, who speaks only English with the employees in the Bathurst office? I want to know so that I can understand better. You stated that you were sorry for the confusion. But there is no confusion; you told the truth. That is exactly what is happening. Now you are backpedalling. You are trying to save face for Service Canada in light of the actions that were taken.

I would like to come back to the matter of the Atlantic region. I asked you whether that region was designated unilingual francophone and you stated that the Atlantic administrative region is an anglophone administrative region. What is an administrative region? What does the administration do? Why is it unilingual? What is the role of New Brunswick in this unilingual administration? Once again, your answer was that the Atlantic administrative region was an anglophone administrative region.

I don't think you came here without information, unless you were unaware of something. What were you doing? Ms. Forand, your answer was that the province of New Brunswick was not separate and that it is part of the administrative structure. But if that is the case, it must have to deal with the administrative structure and talk to people. You told us on several occasions that the administrative structure is unilingual. I even asked you if it was francophone and you stated that it is anglophone.

Please try to shed light on this for us, because it is not clear. I am not talking about services. Since March 8, every time people from Service Canada have answered questions, they refer to customer service. We are not talking about that; we are talking about the administrative structure. This is about the employees, the structure. Who replaced Louise Branch? You said that it was Mr. Alexander, but when I asked about Louise Branch, I was referred to Ms. Gravelle. And when I tried to speak to Ms. Gravelle, she told me that I should speak to her assistant, because she herself did not speak enough French. After that, when I try to speak to her assistant, I have to speak to Carson Littlejohn, who does not speak French either.

You told us that you comply with the Official Languages Act and that it was not you who designated the Atlantic region as unilingual. On March 8, you told us that it was unilingual anglophone. The people who replaced them are unilingual anglophones, and you told us yourself that the administration is unilingual. Please tell us what is going on in the Atlantic region.