Evidence of meeting #78 for Official Languages in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon everyone.
I can only recognize the success of anglophone school boards with immersion programs.
A Statistics Canada representative presented an overview to us of French, English and bilingualism in Canada. The French-English bilingualism rate increased by 0.1%. It went from 17.4% to 17.5%. That 0.1% comes mainly from Quebec, where the bilingualism rate increased from 40.6% to 42%. You are therefore part of that success.
Currently, we can't separate our study on immersion from the bigger picture of bilingualism in Canada. The question I am asking myself, concerning the roadmap, is the following: should we invest in immersion in Canada or should we reinvest in second language learning?
Perhaps you can help me gain a clear understanding of this subject. The number of young Canadians who attend immersion schools went from 267,000 to 329,000, which represents an increase of 23%. However, the number of registrations in regular French-as-a-second-language programs went from 1.8 million to 1.3 million.
In 1996, 15% of young people aged 15 to 24 could carry on a conversation in French, but that percentage is now 11%. We have invested a lot in immersion, but fewer students are enrolled in French-as-a-second-language programs at school. The number of young people who are able to speak French is declining, at least in the rest of Canada.
So my question is this: are we making the right choices?
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
That is a good question. We don't claim to be able to answer for other provinces and territories. I will nevertheless make one or two observations on the subject.
We must all demystify and eliminate the idea that this is a program for elites. This is often discussed and it affects all of us, whether in Quebec or in the other provinces. It is clear that, pedagogically, anyone can learn a second language very well in an immersion program. If we were able to do so, that could expand access to French immersion throughout the country.
Second, you need to determine the best way to increase the rate of bilingualism. From our point of view and yours, that should be the goal.
In our opinion, it is also possible to have an exchange between the two programs. The core program could be improved anywhere in Canada with techniques used in schools where there are French immersion programs.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You have nothing further to add on this subject?
Regarding your record, everything seems to be working well. However, generally, the number of registrations at your school boards seems to concern you.
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
Generally speaking, access to our schools is rather limited by the Charter of the French Language. We are not calling it into question, aside from the new proposals that are currently before the National Assembly.
Moreover, as we mentioned — and it is relevant to our discussions — the importance of the quality of French as a second language is clear every day, because we are aware of the fact that some families who have access to English school make other choices.
We suspect that, in some cases, these are families with two anglophone parents who choose a French school to ensure their children master French. We insist that the option be offered in our schools. Nevertheless, that is a group that doesn't take advantage of us. All of this means that we always have to be concerned about the number of students in our schools.
4:35 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
I'd like to add that our schools, as I've mentioned many times, are part of our communities. As our numbers decrease, we've been forced over the past 15 years to close schools, and this is damaging to the community. Closing a school is always a last choice, but I know that between our two boards we've probably closed 15 or 16 schools in Montreal, and this damages our communities.
I'm not really worried about the English eligible students who are going to the French schools. Their parents have the choice, and I honour that choice, I respect that choice. I will say to you, there are many reasons they do that—David talked about one. Maybe it's because the school is a block away, and they want to go to a close school. Whatever their choices are, whatever their reasons are, I can assure you that francophones feel the same and would love to be able to send their children to English schools.
By having the population, we are able to maintain the programs of excellence we've been offering. If our critical mass decreases, it becomes harder.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have four questions to ask. I will ask them all at once. That way, we will be able to proceed quickly.
The first question is that in Quebec there's a debate about the danger of teaching a second language too early—some people say it's a danger. I understand that in your community you start at kindergarten. I would like to know if there is a debate about it, and why, if there is no debate, there is a linguist somewhere saying it's not something we should do, as we hear in the French system in Quebec.
The second question I know is not in our jurisdiction, but since you are here, is there something in Bill 14 that you may have a concern about—I know it's a danger for CEGEPs—at primary and secondary schools?
The third point is your main focus. When I was the minister what I was told by the people in your community and by you, Mr. Birnbaum, at that time, was to keep your children so that they stay as adults in Quebec. If they live elsewhere, then for your family at Christmas time, it's very complicated. I understand.
Do you succeed? I guess there are many reasons that people may leave, other than they don't speak French. We are in North America. You may be invited to take a job elsewhere. Francophones may be more reluctant to leave, but anglophones are not. I remember when I was studying in Washington, if I hadn't been a francophone, maybe I would have stayed in the United States. I had a lot of opportunities, but my home was clearly in Montreal, and I came back.
The last point is for the benefit of this committee. You told us a lot of things. Can you sum up the ask you have for the report of our committee, the things you want us to absolutely not miss?
4:40 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
All right, Mr. Dion. As for the dangers of early education, the studies are irrefutable. Children as young as two, three, four years old can learn many languages. My school board runs an international language centre that has a preschool for three- and four-year-olds. They do English, French, and their choice of one other language. What happens is that, when they get together in the English and French classes, they all learn the three other languages the children are learning, so most of them can sing their favourite songs in five different languages.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Don't they have a mix-up between the different languages in their minds?
4:40 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
No, they really do not. As Madame Dénommée said earlier, the studies have proven that these children do better in any or all languages as they get older. Their brains are processing the information at a more rapid pace, and they are learning, and succeeding, at higher rates.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Is it because you avoid some mistakes? I have been told that with two parents with different languages, it's important that the kid identify the language with the parent. Is it true? Are there mistakes to avoid?
4:40 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
We don't believe that.
4:40 p.m.
Pedagogical Services Assistant Director, English Montreal School Board, Quebec English School Boards Association
Researchers will have different points of view. If you look at genetics it will bring some things. But they're all in agreement that with transfer of knowledge from a unilingual to a bilingual environment, depending on the origin of the language—from Turkish to Greek, from French to English—they'll harmonize by the time we reach cycle three, grades five and six. The brain will adapt depending on what they're looking at.
4:40 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
I can't tell you how lovely it is to listen to them speaking, flipping back and forth between languages as easily as anything.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
As for Bill 14, I don't want have a debate. This isn't the place, but is there something linked to elementary and secondary schools and to the role of the federal government?
4:40 p.m.
Board Member, Quebec English School Boards Association, and Chair, Lester B. Pearson School Board
The first and most important thing is that Bill 14 would get rid of the exemption for the military, for the French military families in Quebec to send their children to English schools. These families can be uprooted at any point in time. I'm very well aware of that. I have two children in the military. They don't live in Quebec, if we're to touch on your third question.
At any point in time these families and these children can be uprooted and moved to other places. While there may be some French schools on the bases across the country, is the quality of French that they're learning there, the quality of education in a small military school, going to be what they can get in a full school? For some of these families in central Quebec, which we heard about earlier, it means two full schools' worth of families that would prefer to keep their kids in an anglophone system so that if and when they're moved—and they may not be moved—their kids can stay in a common area.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chair, point of order.
Our discussion should be about immersion classes. We won't repeat the discussions happening at a parliamentary committee on Bill 14, with all due respect...
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
They are probably immersion schools, Mr. Dionne Labelle.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
With all due respect to Mr. Dion, I find it is out of order.
Mr. Chair, I will let you decide.
