Official Languages Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

Are there any further questions concerning the sub-amendment?

Go ahead, Mr. Gordon.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I appreciate the effort my colleague is making to facilitate our work. However, I've introduced a notice of motion in accordance with procedure, and I've thanked the Bloc Québécois for being inspired by it so we can have clear tools and are unrestricted by calendar dates—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Godin, but we're dealing with Ms. Ashton's sub-amendment right now.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes, but we're talking about time, Mr. Chair.

You're talking about dates, and I'm talking about time.

There has to be an introduction at some point.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

You said at the first meeting that the chair is required to honour parliamentarians' right to speak as long as what they say is related to the issue at least in some minor way.

This amendment concerns the entire debate on language. It concerns the possibility of hearing the ministers, among other witnesses.

I think that what Mr. Godin said relates to that in more than a minor way.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I really didn't understand it that way. I definitely didn't understand that the motion from Mr. Godin, who is in good faith, added elements to, or contradicted, the sub-amendment that Ms. Ashton is proposing.

If that's the case, Mr. Godin, I'll listen to you again.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, the connection is there in that Ms. Ashton refers to dates. You have to understand that I submitted an amendment to Mr. Serré's motion on November 1. That amendment referred to dates because I was relying on Mr. Serré's motion. He referred to dates, and I referred to dates. I withdrew the clause about our time being limited at the clause-by-clause consideration stage.

Now Ms. Ashton is showing that she's in good faith as well. She's also probably reaching out for the Liberal Party to withdraw its motion so we can move ahead with our work.

Actually, Ms. Ashton said on Tuesday that it was important to follow procedure. I absolutely agree with her because that's efficient and contributes to the proper operation of a committee.

Consequently, in my notice of motion of November 10, instead of referring to dates, which is what Ms. Ashton suggests in her point 1, I refer to meetings. I'm therefore asking whether you would be prepared to have us refer to meetings. When there's a date, we're forced to limit ourselves to that date.

Could any technical issues arise? We don't know. As you know, there have been technical issues during the last three meetings. That's no one's fault. It's not the fault of the NDP-Liberal coalition, or of the Bloc Québécois or the Conservative Party. It's not your fault either, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Godin.

You are continuing a discussion on something that might alter your own amendment. We are dealing with the sub-amendment that Ms. Ashton has proposed. That's what we are discussing.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

If you wish to withdraw your amendment, you may request unanimous consent to do so.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will withdraw my amendment when my colleagues on the other side have committed to withdrawing their motion.

This makes no sense. It's 11:25 a.m. on November 24, and we're wasting time again, and once again, it's the French language that's paying the price.

That's the way it's been since the Liberals introduced their motion on November 1.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Are there any further questions on Ms. Ashton's sub-amendment?

I will give the floor to Ms. Ashton and then Mr. Beaulieu.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I've actually wanted to introduce this sub-amendment for a while, and here we finally are.

The purpose of my amendment is to get the committee moving so we can improve this bill, as virtually all the witnesses asked us to do.

Could we please proceed with a vote on the sub-amendment that I've proposed?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, but before calling for a vote, I have to make sure everyone has had a chance to comment on the sub-amendment.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I think that cutting hearing time in half for the ministers is clearly unsatisfactory.

For example, the Minister of Official Languages has previously appeared before the committee on Bill C‑13. We've also asked her questions in the House.

In the throne speech two years ago, the government admitted for the first time that the French language was declining. That means it has been denying that decline for 50 years.

There are eight million francophones, and the government has admitted that Quebec francophones are in the minority in Canada and North America. This is big news, but it was ultimately obvious. However, the government has admitted the obvious, which is good.

The government says it has a responsibility to assist the French language in Quebec, not just English in Quebec. When the minister appeared before the committee, we asked her what the government would do to help the French language, but we didn't get an answer. To tell the truth, the only answer was the part of the bill concerning federally regulated private businesses, which prevents the Quebec government from applying the Charter of the French language to federally regulated businesses that won't help the French language. You'd think people are trying to appeal to potential voters by leading them to believe they're going to support the French language. I see frowns on some faces here. French is declining in Ontario, and, according to researchers, the war is virtually lost. I think this is quite serious. Measures should be taken to actually address the decline of French. We've received no response to that.

I've often spoken about Quebec and official language support programs. I've often asked the minister and the House what will be done about that.

Right now, all the money goes exclusively to promoting English and developing the anglophone community in Quebec. We have nothing against anglophones, but they're in a dominant position and are part of the Canadian anglophone majority. The Canadian anglophone majority has said that, under the Official Languages Act of 1969, anglophones are considered a minority and we have to help reinforce that anglophone minority. However, it represents the majority.

As for actual measures, it will take time to really—

[Some voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I would just like some order, please, because I can't really hear Mr. Beaulieu's remarks. It's important that we listen to everyone.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I know some of you don't want to hear us, but I think the idea behind this motion is precisely to avoid having to debate or listen to each other too much longer. However, for the future of French, we won't back down because it must not continue declining.

The Official Languages Act is the main obstacle in the fight against the decline of French in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, where I think it does an inadequate job of ensuring the survival of that language. Positive measures currently only serve to support English. Approximately $1.55 billion was allocated from 1995 to 2022 under the development of official-language communities program, which is one of the official language support programs.According to earlier studies, $1.1 billion was allocated to the English-language education system in Quebec, which was previously overdeveloped in the 1960s.

The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the FCFA, even conducted a study and released a report entitled The Heirs of Lord Durham, in which Quebec anglophones were compared to francophones outside Quebec, and there was a follow‑up to that too. The authors found that Quebec anglophones were in a better position than Quebec francophones, based on a number of factors, such as schools, graduation rates and so on. However, what authorities have done is reinforce English-language institutions in the only francophone state in North America. We constantly put questions to the minister, but she doesn't answer.

Then there's the enhancement of official languages program. In the context of the B & B Commission, it was said that the purpose of the Official Languages Act wasn't to make everyone bilingual because, if everyone were bilingual, the minority language would definitely go out the window and become useless. Despite that fact, a significant amount of funding, more than $15 million a year, is allocated to English-language instruction in French-language schools. That's virtually the only funding provided on the francophone side. To be completely honest, there are 4 million—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

My colleague is raising some important points, but I wonder how they relate to my amendment. Since I've already said that I had other amendments to propose, we have to move forward one way or another. I understand my colleague's frustration, but I wonder how it relates to with my amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

It's a tenuous connection, but Mr. Beaulieu nevertheless mentioned the time allotted for the appearance of the Minister of Official Languages. He said that one hour wouldn't be enough and that the minister wasn't meeting the Bloc Québécois' expectations or responding to its requests. I therefore find that there is a connection, albeit a tenuous one.

I will let Mr. Beaulieu continue.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm listening, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

The other two parties are filibustering to prevent the minister from appearing. We're even prepared to hear from all four ministers. So it's time to move on to something else. We can vote.