Official Languages Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

As part of our work today, we are resuming debate on Mr. Serré's motion, Mr. Godin's amendments and Ms. Ashton's sub-amendments.

I remind you that the committee will proceed in the following order: first we must dispose of Ms. Ashton's sub-amendments, then Mr. Godin's amendment and, lastly, Mr. Serré's main motion.

At our last meeting, I told you that we had to adjourn the meeting for technical reasons and that, at our next meeting, as long as we debated the motion, the amendment and sub-amendments, we would resume our work as though we had merely suspended the meeting.

We were about to dispose of Ms. Ashton's sub-amendments.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu has a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I would like to ensure that all the checks have been done.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's true; I always forget to ask if the sound checks have been done for those participating online.

They're done. Thank you for that reminder, Mr. Beaulieu, because the sound checks are very important in preventing injuries to the interpreters.

As we agreed, we are resuming our proceedings exactly as if we had suspended the meeting. We were dealing with Ms. Ashton's sub-amendments.

I'll recap our previous proceedings so we can find our bearings.

Ms. Ashton moved the first sub-amendment, which was adopted and which amended the first paragraph of Mr. Godin's amendment.

Ms. Ashton had introduced a second sub-amendment, which would amend the second paragraph of Mr. Godin's amendment.

I ask you please to pay attention to what I'm about to say: the third sub-amendment suggested by Ms. Ashton was to amend the fourth paragraph of Mr. Godin's amendment. That's where we now stand.

Just as a reminder…

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Perhaps we should read it. I have it in front of me.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

…I would point out that the sub-amendment provides that the committee proceed with clause-by clause consideration of the bill no later than Tuesday, December 6, 202 at 11:00 p.m. ET.

When we suspended the meeting, we were considering Ms. Ashton's sub-amendments. I believe we were debating those sub-amendments. Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I had requested the right to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, you will be the second speaker.

Mr. Beaulieu, the floor is yours.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

First of all, if we proceed with consideration on December 6, we obviously won't have time to hear testimony from the four ministers, unless they each have half an hour for their presentations. I think it's critical that we hear the ministers' testimony. I also would have liked to hear the comments of the Minister of Official Languages on the official languages health program.

There was an article in the Journal de Montréal on the weekend about how hard it is to get care in French at a hospital. We already knew that: there are always a host of examples of people who have had trouble being served in French. That's the case at many hospitals recognized under section 29.1 of the Charter of the French language, which provides status.

An important reminder to everyone that the situation is completely different for institutions designated or referred to under the Official Languages Act, which are asked to provide certain services in French where numbers warrant.

Section 29.1 confers a status which enables institutions to operate entirely in English with regard to signage, communications and even staff hiring. This enables recognized institutions to hire people who don't speak French.

This spreading of English throughout health services in Quebec has mainly been caused by the Official Language Act and the federal government, which, incredibly, funds organizations to promote English throughout Quebec.

Alliance Québec initially received $1 million—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me, Mr. Beaulieu.

I'd like you to tell us where we stand with regard to Ms. Ashton's sub-amendment.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

All right.

In her sub-amendment, Ms. Ashton proposes that the committee proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of the bill no later than Tuesday, December 6, which would vastly limit our ability to receive the ministers and get some answers to our questions.

I'll explain why it's important that we be able to question the four ministers, particularly the Minister of Official Languages, so we can get some answers to our questions.

If we believe we're living in a democracy and that it's important to conduct parliamentary debates and to base our decisions on objective information so we can make decisions that are as informed as possible, I think it's essential that we have the time to conduct debate properly. That's the general aim, but, in this particular case, terminating our debates before December 6 would leave us virtually no time to hear from the ministers.

So as—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Allow me to interrupt you for a moment.

I understand what you're telling us, but we previously did that when we considered the first sub-amendment, which concerned ministers, required time and dates. We've already debated it, and we've already voted on it. That amended the first paragraph of Mr. Godin 's amendment, which we'll have to consider later. It's already been done.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We've had one meeting since then. The December 6 date is now invalid because we won't have time to hold the necessary meetings.

Furthermore, if I correctly understand the rules, you can't prevent a member from speaking if what he or she says is related, even remotely, to the matter at issue.

The matter here concerns the Official Languages Act, the debates, but also a deadline for hearing from the ministers and asking them to answer my questions.

So I think it's important—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu, I don't want to interrupt you. You have the floor, but I just want us to understand each other. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

I agree that, under parliamentary rules, you have a right to speak in a debate. However, what you say must relate to what is being discussed, no matter how tenuously.

You're arguing that there wouldn't be enough time to hear from the ministers.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

December 6 doesn't leave us enough time.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Regardless of what you are going to tell us—and we accept that—I'm telling you that all that was disposed of in the first vote on Ms. Ashton's sub-amendment.

So now we are considering the sub-amendment concerning clause-by-close consideration.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The sub-amendment states that we will proceed with clause-by-clause consideration no later than Tuesday, December 6.

I'm going to explain why we should have more time to hear from the ministers and to get to the clause-by-clause consideration.

As regards clause-by-cause consideration, I hope that it isn't all determined in advance, that there'll be a little goodwill on both sides and that we can debate in such a way that our remarks carry a certain weight. This is a public debate. We're informing the public.

I'm satisfied that, if the majority of Quebeckers and francophones outside Quebec grasped the importance of this study, they'd understand that it's important that we have time to conduct a thorough debate before proceeding with clause-by-clause consideration. It's important to do things right.

Getting back to what I was saying and to the official languages health program, I think the way that's presented is hypocritical. We always talk about minority language communities, but, in Quebec, that means we talk about anglophones.

Ultimately, since anglophones form the majority in Canada, the government is the government of the Canadian anglophone majority. That majority decides unilaterally that Quebec anglophones must receive assistance from the federal government. I consider that indecent since, in the 1960s, Quebec anglophones constituted the English Canadian elite. They had overfunded institutions.

The situation regarding health services has become so serious that it's hard to be served in French in Montréal. That happened to me when I went to see an ophthalmologist at Maisonneuve-Rosemont Hospital. I was waiting for my eye exam, and, when the nurse came, she didn't speak a word of French. She didn't even say "oui" or "bonjour". She asked me to read the letters in English. I was able to do it, but, since I found that unacceptable, I waited.

So I waited much longer. The ophthalmologist had to take the time to conduct my eye exam. I asked him if it was normal for an employee to speak English only, and she answered that she wasn't an employee, but rather an intern. Even if she was an intern, she was the one who did by eye exam. That happened about a month ago.

Far more serious examples than that have been reported in the Journal de Montréal. For example, one woman entered an emergency department with her son, but the emergency doctor didn't speak French. He only spoke English, and he wanted to send them home. She was convinced he hadn't understood the intense pain that her son was suffering. They therefore waited for the next shift to come on so they could complain and say they wanted to be served in French. Then her son was assessed by a francophone emergency doctor, who immediately referred him for surgery. The boy had a ruptured apendix and he was really an emergency case.

We have nothing against the fact that Quebec anglophones have access to services in English, just as francophones outside Quebec should have access to services in French. What Quebec wants, and I hope we can address this topic during clause-by-close consideration, is to be consulted and to have a final say, including on so-called positive measures. I think those measures have a negative effect on the French language and have had for the past 52 years.

What I want to discuss during clause-by-clause consideration is the issue of funding. I also want the ministers to answer our questions and to explain it to us.

I have some figures here on the official languages health program. The health and French aspect is just a minor part of this picture.

We have nothing against the fact that an English-language organization such as AMI-Quebec Action on Mental Illness get grants for mental health. However, why would there be privileged funding solely for anglophones? It's outrageous.

The Community Health and Social Services Network has received $65 million, a significant sum, since 2010.

Since the program has been in effect, the Community Health and Social Services Network has received $65 million. That's a lot of money. Why?

In that time, we've found it increasingly difficult to be served in French. Remember the situation of Quebec hospitals. Vincent Marissal, a Québec Solidaire MNA, has condemned the fact that a member of his family was unable to obtain service in French at Maisonneuve-Rosemont Hospital.

Having said that, I want us to discuss funding during clause-by-clause consideration…

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

…We won't have time to do so if we have three or four—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I have to interrupt you, Mr. Beaulieu, because Mr. Serré has a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not sure I understand where my colleague is headed. Health is a provincial jurisdiction and has nothing to do with the amendment.

Last Friday, the Bloc Québécois member for Joliette said that the Bloc was just filibustering the Official Languages Committee to delay passage of the bill.

I wonder if that's what my colleague is doing because he isn't speaking to the amendments.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

I was just about to make the following comment. Quebec's health minister would probably be more interested in what you're telling us, Mr. Beaulieu. Your personal testimony—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'll explain why—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Allow me to finish, Mr. Beaulieu.