Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

I call this meeting to order.

As René Arseneault noted at our last meeting, he will not be chairing today's meeting. Consequently, I will chair this 67th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

In accordance with Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on April 21, 2023, the committee is meeting to continue its study on increasing francophone immigration to Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format in accordance with the House order of June 15, 2023. Members may attend in person or by using the Zoom application.

To ensure that the meeting runs smoothly, I'd like to pass on some instructions to the witnesses and members.

Before speaking, please wait for me to recognize you by name. If you are participating in the meeting by videoconference, click on the microphone icon to activate it. Please mute your microphone when not speaking.

As far as interpretation is concerned, those present by Zoom have a choice at the bottom of their screen between the floor, English and French. Those in the room can use their headphones and select the desired language channel.

Although this room is equipped with an efficient audio system, it can generate feedback that is extremely harmful to the interpreters and can cause them serious injury. The most frequent cause of feedback is a headset that is positioned too close to a microphone. We therefore ask all participants to handle their headsets cautiously, particularly when their microphones or those of their neighbours are switched on. To prevent incidents and protect the interpreters' hearing, I encourage participants to ensure that they speak clearly into the microphones assigned to them and avoid handling their earpieces by placing them on the table, away from their microphones, when not using them.

A reminder that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

Members present in the room who wish to speak are asked to raise their hand, and members on Zoom are asked to use the “raise hand” function, in order to do so. The clerk of the committee and I will do our best to maintain the speaking order.

Thank you for your patience and especially your understanding and cooperation here today, particularly since we have a new chair.

Pursuant to our routine motion respecting the required connection tests, I would like to inform the committee that all the witnesses conducted those tests before the meeting.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses.

First of all, we have Luisa Veronis, Associate Professor from the University of Ottawa.

From the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, we have Martin Normand, Director, Strategic Research and International Relations. Thanks to you as well for being here.

By videoconference, we have Francesco Viglione, Director General of the Multicultural Association Chaleur Region.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here.

We will begin with remarks from our witnesses, each of whom will have five minutes.

We will start with you, Ms. Veronis. We are listening.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Good afternoon.

Thank you very much for your invitation. It is truly an honour to be here and to speak with the members of this committee.

I am aware of the importance the Canadian government attaches to francophone immigration and to all investments that have been made in the past 20 years, particularly in the service development area.

I am going to address three main points, which correspond to the three parts of the motion.

The first point concerns support services for persons wishing to file an immigration application. First of all, I congratulate you for opening an immigration office in Cameroon. In one of my speeches last year, I said we needed to open more offices, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa.

Nevertheless, candidates wishing to file immigration applications can only do so online. However, the interface may cause problems for filers. The system has become very complicated. Information is available only online and procedures are often long, difficult and confusing. The process may also be a barrier for potential filers. There's also the fact that the information, classes and scoring in express entry are subject to change. It's all confusing.

Incidentally, I conducted an interview for a project earlier this summer in which an agent told me that it was hard to keep up to date and provide information even for an expert like her. Perhaps the department should consider organizing webinars to show and explain to applicants how to prepare and submit their applications, and even make people available to them who can answer questions and meet specific needs. It should also consider employing agents who are trained by the government to prevent scams. I often receive emails from people in Africa who want to come here and who are desperate. They've been scammed several times and have paid a lot of money to unofficial actors. There are problems with the present system and improvements should be made to it.

We should also provide support to those people who are already in Canada on temporary study or work permits. I'm thinking, in particular, of foreign students, who are prime candidates. They encounter many issues, notably the fact that they have to file two applications: one for a post-graduation permit and a second for a resident permit. This process should be facilitated and expedited. Applicants also face unreasonable delays. For example, they must have one year of professional experience in their field when they are students. All of this causes problems. I genuinely think that students who have a Canadian degree are the best suited candidates. Having been a bilingual international student, I can assure you that facilitates matters.

In addition to all that, the government should simply adopt a more radical initiative and completely change the francophone immigration policy system by separating it from general immigration to Canada, which is intended for anglophones and English speakers. That would help vastly accelerate and facilitate everything for everyone. There are other options, such as facilitating and accelerating family reunification, where numbers are lagging, simplifying procedures for economic immigration candidates and having only one class, for example. I've already discussed the student issue.

The second point concerns resources and support in Canada. Pre-departure services are little known and underused. I think we really have to provide better information for people waiting to come to Canada. In the course of my research, many participants told me that they would have benefited considerably from access to those services. However, they were unaware they even existed. The government has invested in this area, and I think it's an outstanding service, but it's underused. I would also propose that support services be expanded for international students, and even to temporary work permit holders, to facilitate and accelerate their transition and integration.

I had intended to discuss some of the recommendations regarding employment, but I don't have much time left.

The final point I want to make is about increasing the rate of applicant approvals. Here I would go back to my suggestion that we create a separate francophone immigration system—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Please wrap up, Ms. Veronis.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

I would also suggest that we consider expediting opportunities for international students by granting them direct access to permanent residence upon graduation.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you.

Ms. Veronis, you will be able to continue your remarks when the members ask you questions. I'm unfortunately the timekeeper and have to run a tight ship. You had an additional 25 seconds.

Mr. Normand, you have the floor for five minutes. I'll be as tolerant with you as I was with Ms. Veronis.

[Martin Normand, Director, Strategic Research and International Relations, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank you for your invitation to participate in the committee's work.

Canada has introduced policies that are designed to promote the recruitment and intake of the international clientele of postsecondary institutions and that are warranted by our expectations of the economic and social integration potential of postsecondary graduates. That's equally true for the clientele attending postsecondary institutions in francophone minority regions.

According to a survey conducted in 2020, more than 90% of the international clientele of member institutions of the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, or ACUFC, intend to look for employment in Canada upon completing their study programs. That figure is greater than the Canadian average.

This percentage, although impressive, obscures the challenges facing that clientele and those institutions. Just imagine how much more support those institutions, particularly the 22 members of the ACUFC, could provide to the international clientele with their educational plans in Canada and how much more they could contribute to the collective work done on francophone immigration.

At the very start, the government put the granting of study permits on its agenda in response to the concerted efforts of many stakeholders. It was an established fact that the refusal rate of study permits requested by African applicants, particularly those from francophone countries, was far higher than in other recruitment pools.

Some corrective measures have begun to be introduced. At the start of the September 2022 term, the acceptance rate of study permit applications from African countries improved slightly relative to previous years. ACUFC subsequently developed constructive ties with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, in order to coordinate its efforts more effectively with those of the postsecondary institutions. In addition, in cooperation with IRCC and Global Affairs Canada, ACUFC is developing new promotional initiatives for the international clientele and with various teams concerned within the departments in Canada and abroad.

The institutions are also providing many services to the international clientele to support those students in their academic programs. For example, pre-departure support and post-arrival orientation and integration services are now offered, including support in finding housing, achieving academic success and preparing for the labour market. Some institutions also provide support for students wishing to transition to permanent residence.

However, the international clientele still faces many systemic barriers. Many institutions are taking action to expand the scope of their services and to foster ties between the international clientele and the francophone communities, which is one of the keys to an eventual successful integration. To continue retaining a portion of that clientele in Canada, we have to come up with a systemic, coherent, effective and ethnic approach in which the academic paths that international francophone students follow are viewed as part of a plan for society in which ties are established among the educational institutions, community service organizations, employers and the community as a whole.

There are good reasons to invest in these efforts. The postsecondary institutions' international clientele forms a major pool of potential candidates for permanent residence, a pool that can contribute to the francophone immigration objectives of the communities and governments and meet our critical labour needs. Consequently, federal institutions must be called upon and encouraged to adopt various positive measures designed to support postsecondary institutions in their efforts to help expand francophone immigration.

This is why we we are making two recommendations today.

First, we recommend that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, develop innovative positive measures to cooperate to a greater degree with minority francophone postsecondary institutions. This effort should expressly acknowledge, possibly in a francophone immigration policy, the role of the postsecondary institutions in achieving government and community objectives, as well as their shared responsibilities for the intake, success and support of the international clientele.

Second, we recommend that the federal government establish a permanent support fund for the francophone minority postsecondary sector the criteria of which should acknowledge the jurisdiction of the provinces, while allowing institutions to use the funding raised to develop foundational measures designed to consolidate and expand their activities.

The vitality of the francophone minority communities depends in part on postsecondary institutions that have the capacity to act in adequately meeting the needs and addressing any issues that arise. Permanent federal government support for postsecondary institutions is essential to ensuring that strong institutions can serve all communities, which have the resources to assist the federal government in meeting the targets it has set for itself, particularly with regard to francophone immigration.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Martin Normand]

The postsecondary institutions devote considerable time and effort to recruiting, taking in, training, retaining and supporting the international clientele as they settle in the communities. Governments have a collective responsibility to ensure that they can continue this work, particularly in circumstances in which francophone immigration targets will increase.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Normand.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Viglione, from the Multicultural Association Chaleur Region, who is attending by videoconference.

[Francesco Viglione, Director General, Multicultural Association Chaleur Region]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting the Multicultural Association Chaleur Region to take part in this discussion, which I hope will assist you in forming a clear understanding of the dynamics contributing to rising francophone immigration. I hope I have answers for all your questions.

My team and I experience immigration every day. We play a vital role in integrating newcomers. We work hard to settle and ensure the economic integration of newcomers to the Chaleur region. Our community is growing every day with the influx of permanent residents, international students and temporary workers. Francophone immigration is a source of cultural dynamism that brings with it new traditions, new arts and new perspectives to our already rich and varied cultural landscape.

The Multicultural Association is one of the four centres in Canada that welcome francophone refugee clients who mostly come from Africa. Canada affords refugees the opportunity to build new lives thanks to our collective efforts. The francophone and Acadian communities want to take in, integrate and include refugees whether they speak French or not.

Francophone immigration reinforces our existing communities and offers francophones and francophiles from around the world a land of welcome where they can flourish, make their contribution and form an integral part of our Canadian family. By welcoming more francophones, we invest in the continued existence of the French language and culture in Canada.

My team and I provide support for the intake and orientation services offered to immigrants. We provide employment support, social and cultural integration assistance, family services and emergency support. Our focus is on professional and linguistic integration. In our region, we strive to encourage citizens to open up and discover these new cultures and this new labour force that has come from elsewhere. We establish partnerships with employers to facilitate placements for francophone immigrants in positions consistent with their qualifications.

Francophone immigration also affords undeniable economic benefits. These newcomers are often highly qualified and bring with them invaluable skills that help grow our economy. They establish businesses, innovate and participate actively in our local prosperity.

As an association, we attend Destination Canada forums to promote our regions and francophone immigration to Canada. Through these forums, we promote other provinces where it is possible to live in French outside Quebec. We have encouraged newcomers to settle in our province and start up businesses while retaining the French language.

Together with La Ruche, we also offer a mentoring program staffed with experts. We provide necessary services and tools to jumpstart businesses so that newcomers and students can form a clearer understanding of the Canadian system and thus make a comfortable start.

Thanks to immigration programs such as New Brunswick's strategic initiative component, skilled francophone workers who have the necessary education level and occupational experience can gain access to permanent residence and thus contribute to the province's economy.

Issues do arise, of course. Our clients are currently experiencing credential recognition problems. We have French teachers from Africa who are not allowed to exercise their occupation despite the labour shortage in that sector. A major step forward has been taken for francophone health sector workers, who may now practise their profession as professional nurses thanks to recruitment missions and international agreements. However, most employers are anglophone, and that is also a handicap for francophone newcomers looking for their first jobs.

As I explained, our association assists newcomers even before they arrive and until they are completely integrated. For example, we also have children who enter a new school system and have to get used to a new culture, which may be very different from that of their country of origin. Being an immigrant myself and having lived in various countries, I can say today that Canada is an immigration and integration model. It is important both to raise and maintain the level of francophone immigration.

In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, francophone immigration to Canada is a good thing, a major asset to our country. However, it requires a thoughtful and balanced approach based on respect for our values and our linguistic heritage. However, delays in the federal government's processing of files should be shorter.

I am certain that, together, we can build a strong, inclusive and prosperous francophone Canada that shines on the international stage.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you very much.

We will now begin our first round.

The four members will have six minutes each for questions and answers. I should inform you right off the bat that, if you have any information or documentation for us, please send it to the clerk, who will forward it to the participants, by which I mean all the members around this table.

We will begin with Bernard Généreux from the Conservative Party.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Veronis, you mentioned a radical option: dividing the Department of Immigration in two. That's a major undertaking you're proposing. The idea would be to treat francophone immigration to Canada differently from anglophone immigration. As you know, for all immigrants to Canada, the number of files still awaiting processing is approximately 1.2 million or 1.5 million. I don't know the exact figure, but we know that 1 million files were submitted last year, and the numbers will have increased, not decreased.

If we remove francophones from the present immigration system, with which we're familiar, with all its faults, what really important changes do you think could be made to the processing of files? What else do you think we should do to make it solely for francophones? That's my first question.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

Yes, it would be a complicated exercise, and I understand the challenge it represents. However, it seems to me that our immigration policy was based and developed on the needs of Canada as a whole. That policy actually does more to serve the anglophone or English-speaking communities. The needs are very different. Those of the francophone communities are essentially demographic, cultural, linguistic and so on. However, the immigration system focuses on economic needs, which raises barriers.

Francophone immigration is based on classes, needs, criteria and eligibility. That's true of the system as a whole, which raises barriers. Consequently, there are delays. If we want to expedite and increase immigration, we'll have to facilitate the process.

The needs of different. I think the key is to develop a system that's consistent with needs. I don't think the present system meets the needs of francophone communities.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In what I would consider an ideal world, what would that look like, based on what organization chart? Do you think there should be two immigration departments or only one that would have two branches independent of each other but that would pool services in certain cases?

I understand your point of view, and I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'm trying to see what it would entail. If we conducted that exercise—which seems to me unlikely, even though I think it's important to explore it—there would be some kind of duplication, or the department would be divided in two, whereas it's already under stress, particularly as a result of the number of immigrants entering Canada. However, there are fundamental immigration and service elements on both sides.

What main elements do you think that one branch should have but not necessarily the other?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

This wouldn't be a duplication. We're talking here about the immigration part, applications and their processing. With regard to problems that arise, I could cite, as an example, what has happened to international students from sub-Saharan Africa. The problem is actually that one component isn't aware that francophone immigration is taking place. Consequently, those applications are denied for whatever reason. It's already clear that there's a problem and that things aren't working.

So the idea isn't to duplicate anything. There could simply be a francophone immigration class that would function differently.

I haven't thought about an org chart, about who would do what or about responsibilities. The idea would actually be to do away with classes that don't apply to francophone immigration.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Normand, what do you think about that idea? Do you think the separation between anglophone and francophone immigration would improve the processing of study permit applications for people wanting to study at your colleges?

[Martin Normand]

I find the idea interesting, but I think there has to be a pre-established system for international students that would have credibility abroad and, at the very least, entail some coordination in application processing. Yes, we could imagine a system that would give precedence to the processing of study permit applications from francophone students. However, the international postsecondary education market is very competitive and we shouldn't get to a point where some applicants may view the possibility of establishing a separate system for francophones as a practical opportunity that might open the door to fraudulent practices.

I completely understand that this will be part of the conversation, but let's be frank: there's a lot of concern about fraud in study permit applications to Canada. We at ACUFC are aware of this, and our colleagues at other postsecondary sector associations are as well. At the very least, we have to ensure that the processing of study permit applications is coordinated and, especially, that departmental authorities are able to conduct an intradepartmental dialogue to prevent those problems.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Normand.

I now give the floor to Marc Serré from the Liberal Party of Canada.

Go ahead, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome our three witnesses. Thank you for contributing to our deliberations on the federal government's role in improving francophone immigration.

Thank you, Mr. Normand and the 22 members of your association, for the work you're doing in the colleges and universities across the country. My first questions are for you.

You made two recommendations. You mentioned positive measures and the permanent support fund for the francophone minority postsecondary sector. We heard a lot about positive measures during our study of Bill C‑13 and in the course of the Treasury Board's work.

Do you have any specific recommendations for us regarding positive measures? You mentioned pre-departure support and post-arrival orientation and integration services as well as retention and a whole series of ways to attract students.

Would you please tell us more specifically about the positive measures that we should take based on what you've heard from your members?

[Martin Normand]

Of course.

You have to understand that postsecondary institutions are called upon to play many roles in welcoming foreign students, ranging from recruitment to support for study permits, intake, housing, integration and even fitting in with the communities to ensure that the students have an enriching academic experience on our campuses. That may also include support in transitioning to permanent residence.

However, IRCC should consider certain positive measures. First, the department should reconsider the possibility of temporary residents using institutional services reserved for permanent residents. In Canada, virtually all those services are reserved for permanent residents, which constitutes a barrier to the proper integration of foreign students in communities. Those services are not available to foreign students who might have questions about their pathway to potential immigration and who would like to improve their meshing or integration in the community or find contacts with employers or community organizations. Some services are offered at our institutions, but the range of services is always equivalent to what's offered at anglophone institutions. So there are some barriers. Summing up, to overcome this first obstacle, we should allow temporary residents, at least francophone students, to use certain services reserved for permanent residents.

The second positive measure might be highly technical in nature, but our institutions would be delighted to have it: the government should ensure that data is continuously shared between IRCC and our institutions. The study permit issue has received a lot of coverage. IRCC has a lot of data on the processing of study permits that doesn't reach the institutions. In many cases, an institution learns that the study permit of a potential student has been denied when it sees, in September, that the student is absent. This complicates student body planning. For our institutions, which plan for the numbers of foreign students they will be taking in over the long and even medium terms, it's frustrating to have that planning disrupted by decisions that immigration officers make. It complicates matters for our institutions. Consequently, data on study permits should therefore be communicated more directly and continuously before their studies begin.

Data on the number of graduates who apply for and are granted permanent residence should also be shared more freely once they've completed their studies. Students aren't informed, after they leave the institutions, as to whether their immigration efforts have been successful. If they have, the institutions should determine whether their programs are appropriate or whether any changes should be made to ensure that permanent residence applicants aren't put at a disadvantage by the fact that they've studied at a francophone institution. Could certain changes to their academic programs facilitate approval of their applications? Our institutions would also welcome this continuous data-sharing.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Veronis, you said that the immigration office that was opened in Cameroon was a positive step, but you also mentioned that immigration applications are filed solely online, over the Internet, and that this causes problems.

Do you have any specific recommendations regarding application processing? Should we establish a hybrid system, since the fact that everything is done online causes problems? Do you have any specific recommendations on that?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

My understanding is that all immigration applications are filed online. Information is also available online. I receive information requests from individuals in Africa. When I browse the site, I constantly come back to the same point. There's a kind of loop, and I can't go any further. I don't think I could file my application today because it's done online. So just imagine what it's like for African applicants.

People in Africa don't do business over the Internet. They communicate with each other orally. Even credentialed people like doctors and engineers have trouble finding information because of the way the site is built. The same is true of certain immigration officers here. The person I spoke with, and who helps people from there, couldn't find all the information.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Serré.

Now it's the turn of Mr. Beaulieu from the Bloc Québécois.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our guests.

My first question concerns recruitment, which you discussed at length. It seems to me that a lot of work has to be done in this area. Also, for social and workplace integration purposes, isn't it easier for francophone immigrants to settle in regions with strong francophone communities and jobs in French, as well as institutions that operate at least partly in French?

[Martin Normand]

If the overall objective, as outlined in the Official Languages Act, is to increase the demographic weight of francophones, we'd have no business choosing the communities that deserve an increase in demographic weight.

I understand that successful integration often depends on institutional completeness. However, if the problem in certain communities is a shortage of French-language institutions and services for the purpose of taking in and integrating newcomers, the first step is to solve that problem and to ensure there's a range of appropriate services with which to welcome and integrate them. That way, everyone can benefit from the collective efforts made to increase the demographic weight of francophones in Canada.