Official Languages Committee on March 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 90 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 29, 2024, the committee is meeting to resume its study on language obligations related to the process of staffing or making appointments to key positions.

Since all the witnesses are appearing in person, I will skip the usual instructions for individuals using Zoom.

I'd like to welcome our wonderful witnesses.

We have Ms. Wendy Bullion‑Winters, vice-president of the business enablement branch and chief financial officer at the Canada School of Public Service.

We also have Ms. Jennifer Carr, president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.

I believe it's your first time appearing before the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Welcome to the best committee in town.

As you probably know, since you've undoubtedly appeared before other committees, you will each have five minutes for your opening remarks. This will be followed by a question and answer period.

I'll be quite strict on time, because I want everyone to get at least two turns for questions. Therefore, I'll ask you to respect the five-minute maximum. If you take less time, that's fine too.

We'll start with you, Ms. Bullion‑Winters. You have five minutes.

[Wendy Bullion-Winters, Vice-President, Business Enablement Branch and Chief Financial Officer, Canada School of Public Service]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, and good afternoon.

I’m honoured to be speaking to you today on behalf of the Canada School of Public Service from Ottawa, the traditional unceded territory of the Anishinabe people.

Our mandate is to provide common, standardized curricula and training to support federal public servants with the knowledge, skills and competencies necessary to fulfill their responsibilities in serving Canadians.

The school provides online self-paced and instructor-led courses, learning events and numerous other learning products. The school has over 350 course offerings and over 500 additional learning tools, including videos, job aids and articles, on its learning platform and website. So far this year, over 290,000 public servants have participated in courses at the school.

As you can see, the school has many areas of learning. However, today, I will be speaking to you about areas pertaining to official languages.

The school was established in 2004 when the legislative provisions of part IV of the Public Service Modernization Act came into force. The school was created as an amalgamation of three organizations, namely, the Canadian Centre for Management Development, Training and Development Canada and Language Training Canada.

Prior to 2004, Language Training Canada was responsible for providing language training to departments.

Beginning in 2006, a series of government decisions stipulated that the school would no longer provide language training for acquisition of a second language and transferred the responsibility to departments.

In simpler terms, the school is no longer offering courses to learn a second language. Instead, it now offers learning products to help maintain the language skills already possessed.

The school offers access to 15 online second-language training tools and job aids, in English and in French, to help public servants maintain language skills and to support their preparation for their second-language evaluation tests. These tools include self-directed evaluation, simulations, and interactive tools designed to improve oral and written comprehension, pronunciation, grammar, written expression and fluency in their second official language. The school also offers two courses on the Official Languages Act and hosts various learning events to raise awareness about linguistic diversity and to promote an inclusive environment in the public sector.

This year, two events on official languages were already held. These events were attended by over 3,500 public servants.

The school's learning products and courses are offered in both official languages and are compliant with the Official Languages Act.

I thank the committee for having me here today and for their interest in the work of the Canada School of Public Service.

I'm happy to answer any questions that committee members may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Bullion-Winters. That was just three minutes and 30 seconds.

Ms. Carr, you have five minutes.

[Jennifer Carr, President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Jennifer Carr, and I am the proud president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.

Our union believes in a country where people can successfully pursue their career and obtain the services they need in both official languages. That is our belief for our organization and for Canada's public service.

It's not only a fundamental right set out in Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's also an important Canadian value.

That's why we stand behind the protection of both official languages and the protection of the many indigenous languages spoken across our country. Protecting one's language and preserving one's culture go hand in hand.

The institute believes the federal government must set the example for all other employers and be held to the highest standard, but our employer is failing to uphold bilingualism in our public service. Our members have raised concerns about inadequate investments in language training. They have told us there's a lack of a coordinated language strategy, and it's hurting their career development opportunities. They've spoken about their frustrations when tools they must use for everyday activities aren't available in both official languages. With remote work and cross-country virtual teams, this is more important than ever.

We're also concerned about how the use of private contractors is making things even worse. Contracting out is being done outside of the normal rules the government has set for itself, ignoring the language and diversity requirements that our government says are its priorities. This means that on top of runaway costs and the damaging loss of institutional knowledge, contracting out is hurting the government's ability to offer quality services in both official languages.

I was also concerned to hear the language commissioner's testimony about the lack of a centralized approach. Decentralized systems, where individual managers carry out too much of the load, lead to an uneven response to common problems. As the commissioner recommended, a central body at Treasury Board, with responsibilities for implementing and governance, could help.

We also urge the committee to consider how the government can support diversity within the public service. People from indigenous communities, who may not know both official languages, can bring valuable knowledge of indigenous languages and cultures, enrich our government and help us deliver better services to their communities.

A thoughtful implementation of Bill C-13 presents a unique opportunity for the Canadian government to promote and protect bilingualism and linguistic diversity. To achieve this, we have three recommendations for this committee.

First, the government must engage in continuous dialogue with its stakeholders. This means establishing ongoing discussions with unions like mine, employee groups and linguistic minority communities. It is critical to ensure that the processes and policies implemented are practical and fair and consider the diverse needs of our members.

Second, the government must provide comprehensive, accessible and flexible language training opportunities for all employees. This must be backed with adequate investments and proper resourcing. It is crucial that these training programs accommodate various learning styles and different schedules and ensure equitable access for all.

Third, the government must establish mechanisms for the ongoing monitoring and evaluation of the implementation process. This must include seeking regular feedback from employees and their representatives to identify challenges and areas for improvement. The government should commit to clear implementation goals and a timeline that it must report on regularly so that adjustments can be made if and when necessary.

Treasury Board is in a unique position to show leadership and establish a coordinated language strategy, one backed by properly funded language training.

We hope that the committee, in preparing its final report, will take our members' concerns and recommendations into consideration.

Our goal is to ensure that the results of your work will benefit all employees and support the development of a public service that truly reflects Canada's linguistic diversity.

Thank you.

I'd be pleased to answer questions from committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thanks, Ms. Carr.

We'll now start with the first round of questions. Each political party will have six minutes to question the witnesses.

Mr. Godin, Conservative Party member and first vice-chair of this committee, will start.

You may go ahead, Mr. Godin, for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our wonderful witnesses for coming.

I'd like to clarify something right off the bat. Do the Canada School of Public Service and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada work together or at the same location?

My question is for both witnesses.

[Jennifer Carr]

Normally, we don't work together. I work mainly with Treasury Board.

However, I think that we have similar mandates or concerns: the public service needs to be able to respond to requests in both official languages.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Ms. Bullion‑Winters, would you like to add anything?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

Some members of the institute work at the school, such as information technology professionals, so we do work together to some extent.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If I understand correctly, your clients are in the public service, and Ms. Carr's clients are in the public service. Is that correct?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

That's correct.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Don't you think it would be useful to join forces so that there's only one language institution for public servants?

[Jennifer Carr]

With regard to working together, the structure that exists right now is that the unions speak directly to Treasury Board when it comes to Treasury Board policies. The Canada School of Public Service is one of those clients and is not responsible for the policies and processes. It is there to implement, so from that level, I need to talk to Treasury Board about those policies and make sure they're implemented in a fair and transparent way.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

My next question is quite simple, Ms. Carr. What's your role at the institute?

[Jennifer Carr]

I'm the president.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Are you bilingual?

[Jennifer Carr]

Yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Okay. It's just a question.

Ms. Carr, you made three recommendations. If I remember them correctly, the first was to engage in continuous dialogue with the unions. Does that mean that there's no dialogue right now?

[Jennifer Carr]

There's a dialogue, but it's not constructive. It's not a dialogue where our concerns are taken into consideration and where we work together. We're simply being given information. Sometimes, we're listened to, sometimes not.

We really need to have more fluid conversations and the opportunity to develop better policies for our employees and the public service.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Ms. Carr, as you know, when our committee studied Bill C‑13, which included amendments to the Official Languages Act, we moved an amendment to make Treasury Board fully responsible for applying the act to all affected organizations, rather than dividing those responsibilities.

You just told us about a fruitless dialogue. I understand that this is the result of the old bill, now law, which divided powers. Once again, it falls between the cracks.

Is this something you’ve observed? Are you happy with the situation?

[Jennifer Carr]

It's a preoccupation of mine.

I've come to many committees where I've talked about the decentralization of services, and we did hear from the Canada School of Public Service about decentralization and leaving those responsibilities for the department. That has created an inequity within the department such that things have fallen through the cracks.

It depends on where you work. If you work for a small agency or department that can put resources towards something, you get them, but other agencies or departments may not put the emphasis necessary to achieve what is asked for under Bill C-13.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I now have a quick question for both of you: Do you provide language training to senior officials?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

We offer training to maintain language skills. The school offers its services to public service employees only. Any employee may take courses at the school.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So senior officials can receive training from you.

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

Yes, senior officials can also take our courses.