Official Languages Committee on March 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

For this first round of questions, Ms. Ashton of the NDP will be the last, but not least, to speak.

Just before, Ms. Ashton, could you say a few words so we can test the sound?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Hello. I hope you can hear me well and that the sound is good.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm told everything is good on the interpretation side.

You have the floor for six minutes, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses.

Ms. Carr, you mentioned the devastating impact the outsourcing of government services has had on bilingualism, but also on public services in general.

Can you talk to us about that? Can you also give us some recommendations on that?

[Jennifer Carr]

Again, we're talking about the pitfalls of contracting out. We have less accountability and transparency. We have higher costs. When it comes to things like language training, we also don't have the matrices. It's about a check box or performance.

I can give you a personal example. I know of people who are set to take the generalized training—two hours, two times a week—and are never advancing. If it was in the public service, we could identify things like language barriers or disabilities.

A contractor is taking the money and running. They don't care whether you succeed. They don't have the values of the public service and the public good in mind when they come to the table. There's a lot of money being spent on contracting out, when we could hire internal people to do that training and have the matrix and quality we need to obtain a viable bilingual federal public service.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

The Public Service Alliance of Canada, as part of its negotiations with Treasury Board, is asking for a review of the bilingual bonus directive. In particular, it is asking for an increase in the bonus from $800 to $3,000.

In your opinion, do we need to increase the bilingual bonus? If so, why?

[Jennifer Carr]

We need to revise the bilingual bonus. In this assessment, we also need to ask whether the public servants in question are providing a service to the public. There are many public servants who are bilingual, but who occupy a unilingual position, not a bilingual one, and who therefore do not receive the bilingual bonus.

Every time we ask that the policy be revised, Treasury Board tells us they want to abolish the bonus instead. So they don't want to talk about increasing the bonus; they want to take it away and reinvest the money elsewhere. In our opinion, we need both: an increase in the bonus and more investment.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I would like to refer to one of the points you talked about: the importance of respecting and recognizing indigenous languages known by members of the public service. Many of your members work in first nations and Inuit communities—in indigenous communities across the country. You've spoken about how important it is to not just protect but also recognize that skill set.

Do you have a recommendation to our committee on the recognition of indigenous languages known by public servants? How important is it to see increased recognition from the federal government?

[Jennifer Carr]

I think it's fundamental to make sure there's inclusion in the federal public service.

I'll go back to reconciliation. If you have members of a community who can speak the language, it goes a long way to say that we value and want to provide services in those languages.

When somebody comes with a native language but may not have both official languages, you need to give them the opportunity to learn. There shouldn't be a barrier to their moving up in the federal public service just because they don't have those two languages. They have two languages, just not the ones that are recognized as the official languages.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to quickly ask Ms. Bullion‑Winters if she has anything to add about one or more of the questions I asked.

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

No, thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right.

How much speaking time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have just over a minute left.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right, thank you.

In that case, I'll get back to you, Ms. Carr.

Could you elaborate on the priorities or recommendations you submitted to the committee? What are the important things to keep in mind for the recommendations we will be making to the government as part of this study?

[Jennifer Carr]

I gave three recommendations. They're all critical, but, again, it's crucial that we have training programs that accommodate various learning styles, different schedules and equitable access. That shouldn't depend on whether my department has funds; it should depend on the priority of the government.

I will share a story with you. I am person who has no diversity issues, and when I self-identified as needing accommodations for language training, I was passed over time and time again because I couldn't fit the prescribed two hours a week. I think we need to look at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Carr.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

As we won't have time for the full second round of questions, I'm going to shorten the speaking times. That's because we have two small budgets to pass before 6:30 p.m., which is when the meeting is scheduled to end. So I'm going to allocate two minutes to the Liberal and Conservative members. That's very short. After that, the Bloc Québécois and NDP members will have the floor for one minute.

Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for two minutes, and that's firm.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

About 290,000 people have taken courses this year alone. What is the average number of people who take the courses in a year and what is the motivation? Is it really for advancement?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

This year we've had more than 41,000 registrations for the 15 courses that pertain to official languages. I feel that's encouraging, and it shows that public servants are interested in maintaining their second official language and in the learning products we offer.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I had heard 290,000, and I was kind of blown away by the number.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

It's since the beginning.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Oh, it's since the beginning, okay.

Do you have teachers, or is everything online and the people get directed by questionnaires and that sort of thing? Do you have instructors working with people?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

I'll just clarify that the 290,000 public servants were the total for all of our courses. We offer 350 courses across five business lines, of which 15 courses are specific to official languages. It's 290,000 public servants for 350 courses, and 49,000 for the 15 official language courses.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you. Time is so short here.

What about your senior staffers? My understanding is that quite often they could get up to a year off with pay for intensive French learning. Do you run that also, or how is that run?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have less than 15 seconds.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Actually, Monsieur Généreux, read your question.