The House is on summer break, scheduled to return Sept. 15

Evidence of meeting #1 for Subcommittee on Gifts under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We're in public now.

As was pointed out to me by the clerk, this subcommittee has not dealt with procedures that it would adopt--or bylaws, or ways of operating. I chair another subcommittee, the subcommittee on human rights of the foreign affairs committee, and at that subcommittee it had been the practice to adopt rules, such as how to deal with witnesses, times of speaking, and so on. May I assume that the members of the committee want to stick with essentially operating with just the rules that bind our parent committee rather than trying to adopt our own? Is that a general agreement?

Madam Jennings, please.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

In the past, has a subcommittee of Procedure and House Affairs simply used the rules of the committee of the whole? If that's the case, then yes, let's just continue in the tradition.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

The answer is that all the ones I've been involved with have done that.

Is it the general consensus to just follow what the parent committee does?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay.

The second matter I want to deal with is in regard to material. We will receive some material. Some of it will be presented to us confidentially, one would assume, and it would be appropriate to keep that in camera. But my preference is very much, where possible, to have any items treated as public documents. The public has a right to know what we are doing whenever some kind of confidentiality is not requested by, for example, the commissioner when she submits materials to us. I would like to make items, where possible, public, starting with the submission Madam Dawson has given us. By referring to it right now, I'm effectively making it a public document. I'd like to treat things that way, unless there's any reason for confidentiality, in which case we'll treat them as confidential documents.

The next item I want to deal with is the question of dealing with any witnesses we have. We're likely to have only one witness, I expect, and that is the commissioner, but that could change.

This committee is different from any previous committee I've been on in that there is no government member other than me, the chairman. Members will be aware that I was opposed to this committee structure, because it would make it impossible for a government member to deal with witnesses, or to vote, should there be any disagreement. Therefore, I am going to propose, in dealing with our witnesses, an order for questioning. This is something we can't simply cross from the parent committee, because that has a different structure. There are more members on that committee. The order would be simply that we start with the official opposition. We then go to the next largest party, the Bloc Québécois. We then go to the New Democrats. I will reserve the right to ask questions as the final questioner.

I'm hoping to do this by consensus. We've had consensus on other subcommittees on similar matters. We dealt with the code of ethics for MPs entirely by consensus. We had no votes at all, and I was very pleased with that. I would like, where possible, to continue that approach. If there's a need for voting, I will just alert members of the committee to the fact that I will exercise my right to vote and will not regard the fact that I hold the chair as making me ineligible to vote. That's not something I will regard as being subject to challenge, although if anybody finds that objectionable, they will have the option of voting non-confidence.

Go ahead, Madam Jennings, please.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I have no objection, clearly, to you participating in the questioning of witnesses. That is the practice on all committees I have sat on, whether it's been a subcommittee or a committee of the whole. The chair has, from time to time, sometimes very regularly, sometimes sporadically or very exceptionally, reserved some time to ask questions and clarify issues. So I have no problem.

I would suggest that if we're allotting time, because that's part of our rules--the first round is x amount of time, and so on--that we empower the clerk to keep an eye on the timer and signal when our time is up, the same way you do with the members here.

In terms of voting, normally the chair does not vote, and unless the clerk tells me that on subcommittees of Procedure and House Affairs the tradition has been that the chair has voted, then I'm not interested in having the chair vote.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Well here you have a problem, Madam Jennings. Hopefully, if it is done by consensus, we won't have to have any votes. The reason I wanted this out of camera was so it would be on the record. If there's a need for a vote--and you were the strongest advocate of making sure that no government member be present on the committee, except for the chair--

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

That's correct.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

--and given the fact that we adopted that practice, I will be voting. I will not accept challenges to my right to vote, and if you want to challenge me, you'll have to do so by effectively voting non-confidence in me and removing me from the chair. Then maybe you can find someone who's more inclined in that regard. But that is how I'm going to handle it.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Chair, you cannot unilaterally change the rules. As I've just asked, can the clerk confirm whether or not, in previous subcommittees of this Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, the chair has in fact—and that's regardless of which party was the governing party and therefore occupying the positions of chair of the subcommittee...? Is it the practice that the chair votes?

I'm asking the clerk now. The clerk is the person who knows the rules.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Madam Charlton will have the floor next—

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

May I have an answer?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes, you will, and then it will be Madame DeBellefeuille.

You've been asked a question. You should feel free to respond.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. James M. Latimer

In the House of Commons committees and subcommittees, the chair only votes in the case of a tie.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's correct. Just before we go to the next member, I think I'll advise Madam Jennings that I will be voting unless there is a vote of non-confidence in me, removing me from the chair, at which point you can choose someone else you might find more compliant. That's why I asked to be a member of this committee: to ensure that the undemocratic procedure you chose to adopt would not be allowed to stand.

Madam Charlton, you have the floor.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Excuse me. I would like my name to be on the list where we have an ongoing discussion, so when my turn comes up—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

It is on the list.

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Madam Charlton.

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

I guess I'm a little troubled by how we're starting our proceedings here on the subcommittee. I've been on the subcommittee for a while now. The chair is right, although I don't believe it's right that we decided all things unanimously—I do recall having votes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I stand corrected. I apologize. I actually don't recall that, but I accept your correction.

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Nonetheless, it's been a fairly collegial committee and I think it's been a non-partisan committee. I'm not sure why you would start a new sitting of this committee raising this as an issue. You know—and in fact your introductory comments made it quite clear that you're aware of the fact—that chairs don't cast ballots unless it's a tie vote on a committee.

I don't understand why you think this is something we need to be debating at great length today. I certainly don't come at this from a partisan perspective. As you know, not all committees nor all subcommittees are chaired by government members. For me, at least, this is not a partisan issue in the least. But frankly, I don't feel empowered as a committee member to give you the right to be the exception to the normal procedures of the House. I'm a little startled by the fact that you think you have the right to assume those powers for yourself.

I can certainly appreciate that you weren't happy with votes that constructed the subcommittee in the way that we now come together. Nonetheless, that doesn't change the role of the chair, nor, in my view, either the rights or the obligations of the chair for this committee. I actually agree with Madam Jennings and the position she's taking on this.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Madam DeBellefeuille, please.

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Thank you.

I am a little surprised, Mr. Chair. I came here to work today and was anxious to get on with it.