Evidence of meeting #51 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was insurance.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I'd like to call the meeting to order.
I want to first of all take the opportunity to welcome everyone here. Bienvenue à tous.
This, colleagues, is the continuation of our study of chapter 9, “Pension and Insurance Administration--Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, of the November 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.
As the first item, I'd like to welcome to the committee a new member. Jean-Yves Roy is a new member of the committee.
Welcome, Jean-Yves.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Bonne chance. Jean-Yves un et Jean-Yves deux....
I want to point out that as part of this hearing, colleagues, we're going to hear from Reg Alcock, the former minister and President of the Treasury Board; and Anne McLellan, former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and also the former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police we have Mr. Paul Gauvin, the deputy commissioner of corporate management and comptrollership.
Before I proceed any further, I understand, Mr. Williams, that you have a point of order you want to make at this time.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Back on February 21 at our meeting, you asked Ms. Busson, the Commissioner of the RCMP.... Let me quote you: “...I don't want anyone to speculate at this hearing, but I suggest that the commissioner, assisted by Ms. George, undertake to provide us in writing the circumstances surrounding the so-called alleged dismissal of Sergeant Frizzell.”
The commissioner responded, “You have my undertaking.”
Mr. Chairman, as you know, all we received was the letter that was handed to Staff Sergeant Frizzell removing him from the case, but there has been absolutely nothing regarding the circumstances surrounding it. At the last meeting, you may recall that Deputy Commissioner George said that the RCMP had discussions with the Department of Justice, and based on whatever these discussions were, they decided that they would just send us the letter that was given to Staff Sergeant Frizzell.
The point is, Mr. Chairman, that we had an undertaking from the commissioner that she would provide the circumstances surrounding that letter. We're still waiting. Therefore I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that you instruct the clerk to write to the commissioner on behalf of the committee to have her fulfill her undertaking to this committee.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Okay, Mr. Williams, I will do that. I've just been informed by the clerk that we do not have any further correspondence or communication from the commissioner. We have the commissioner scheduled to appear before the hearing again. I think this is timely. She gave the undertaking, and whatever Justice said or didn't say I don't think has any relevance to these proceedings. She has to answer questions of this parliamentary committee, so I hope when she comes back Wednesday she'll have that information.
Mr. Clerk, would you follow up on that?
Mr. Poilievre, I understand you have a point of order.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Yes. Evidence that has been tabled through the KPMG audit of December 5, 2005, along with testimony from Mr. Frizzell and others, has indicated serious contracting irregularities. Most of this scandal has not involved personal enrichment but rather allegations of transferring funds inappropriately. But this is one exception to that rule. In fact, there are serious contracting improprieties that seem to have enriched a well-connected and favoured few.
I'm just asking whether the chair would confirm that the list of Mr. Frank Brazeau, who was in charge of that contracting over at Consulting and Audit Canada, and David Smith, who was a recipient of large contracts for seemingly no work, are now on our list of witnesses scheduled to appear before this committee.
Can you confirm that, Chair?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Those people, Mr. Poilievre, are included in the list that's included in the report of the steering committee meeting held earlier today. That will be discussed and debated and voted upon at 5:15.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
At 5:15, we will vote on their inclusion as witnesses?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
If there's nothing further, we're going to ask for opening statements.
Monsieur Laforest.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chairman, at noon hour, in the steering committee of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, we discussed the need to obtain as quickly as possible all of the organization charts of the RCMP. You mentioned that the commissioner, Ms. Beverley Busson, would be appearing on Wednesday. However, I believe that it would be important for the Public Accounts Committee to quickly pass a motion requesting the RCMP to provide a full set of organization charts for the relevant years in order to allow people to really understand the situation.
We have heard a lot of witnesses since the beginning of this review but it is really difficult to make sense of it all. The greater public also needs to be able to find its way around this. Contrary to the investigation proposed by the minister of Public Security, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts is a public forum. I believe it is important for all parliamentarians and citizens to get a sense of the differences between these organization charts and especially of who was doing what at any given time. I think it is a matter of public trust in the RCMP, and that trust is presently at a pretty low level.
So I would propose passing a motion to this effect.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Monsieur Laforest.
We raised that point at the steering committee this morning. Perhaps I'll ask the clerk to speak to that.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Georges Etoka
Mr. Chair, I made a call to the RCMP contact person informing them that this request had been made. They are looking into it.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Yes, I am going to table a motion to this effect. I do not yet have it written down, but I would like the committee to vote on it fairly quickly. The motion would state that the committee wants this information. No one here is an expert on the RCMP but it is important that people know the structure of the organization, that they know who does what, who the senior people are, who was responsible for whom and who is supervising whom. We need to have this information as quickly as possible in order to find our way around. I think that before the end of the meeting we should vote on this motion, which I am going to put in writing.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
I presume, Mr. Chairman, that we will also discuss at 5:15 the letter sent by the office of Mr. Fitzpatrick requesting the regular presence of Mr. Fraser Macaulay at the committee.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Yes, we talked about that also. Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Frizzell are in the audience now, but I don't think we need them today. You're right that it was basically agreed that they would be asked to come back.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
On a point of order, when Mr. Crupi appeared before the committee he was obligated to bring forward a document--the references he used to get his new job at the Communications Security Establishment. I haven't seen a copy arrive yet. Do we have any information on where that is?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I'm going to turn the floor over to Minister Alcock.
Welcome. The floor is your.
