Public Accounts Committee on April 25th, 2007

[Garry Loeppky]

I think in hindsight, perhaps if we had a better balance of officers doing the investigation--a better balance.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you think there needs to be a better process to find out when there might be...? Especially when you're bringing in another police service to investigate a police service, do you not think now that maybe there needs to be a protocol to find out whether or not there were previous existing relationships that could taint the review?

Secondly, do you not think that maybe a little more emphasis on keeping the physical arm's length would be a priority also?

[Garry Loeppky]

Clearly, I think you need to have an assurance that there is no conflict and no perception of conflict, as there could be in this case, with Inspector Roy having worked at the RCMP before.

With respect to the location, I think if the proper accountability and reporting structures are in place, then the space becomes somewhat irrelevant, as long as everybody's comfortable in that environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have four minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Commissioner Busson, when did you informally or formally first hear about this particular scandal?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I was in Ottawa at the same meeting ex-Deputy Commissioner Loeppky was at when the commissioner spoke with Jim Ewanovich about stepping down from his role because of the pension investigation.

Up to that point in time, I was blissfully unaware that there had been this kind of controversy and those kinds of things going on. I was quite aghast and very surprised about it, having not heard previously that this issue was under audit investigation, and about the other things that were happening.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You're a member of the senior executive committee. I assume it was raised at that senior executive committee?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

It was actually at the senior management team meeting. The senior management team are all the commanding officers and the deputies of the regions. That's where it came up.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Did anyone challenge or question Commissioner Zaccardelli on the processes that had been put in place and were being put in place?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

At that period of time, I'm not sure whether anyone did or not, but certainly I wasn't aware of any controversy around that. So if people did, I didn't know about it.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

How many officers are there above the chief superintendent level in the RCMP, just approximately? Is it 100, more than 100?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

There are approximately 50.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Looking forward to the issues of accountability and governance, why would it take a divisional representative to bring all of this forward? You have some 50 officers above the level of chief superintendent, but it was a divisional rep who kept at this, and that's why it's seeing the light of day today. What does that speak to in terms of the inner workings, the structures, and the inner culture within the RCMP?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

From my own perspective, that matter was in the hands of Deputy Commissioner George, and I understood that she was managing it. I had at that point no information that she wasn't. In hindsight, I believe that was the different case.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

But why a divisional representative, and after a great length of time and having worked on it adamantly? It almost seems to appear that in terms of governance there are some issues that need addressing.

When you sat down with Minister Stockwell Day and you discussed this investigation, will it encompass these very important questions of governance, the internal mechanisms, the internal culture that we have at the present time within the RCMP?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I didn't discuss—

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Williams?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Is this a relevant question for the commissioner or more for the minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, we don't intend to call the minister on this issue, Mr. Williams.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Perhaps the minister should be called before the committee at a certain point.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

If you read the terms of reference on the investigation, the minister has made it public. I didn't even know the Commissioner of the RCMP was involved in discussions with the minister regarding the terms of reference.

I think you've been giving the questions a fair degree of latitude, Mr. Chairman, at this late stage, but I still wonder, is it appropriate for that question to be answered by the Commissioner of the RCMP?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Yes, have you discussed the terms of reference?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'll allow it. Go ahead, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. That's it, though; that's your final question.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Have you discussed the terms of reference? You called it several times an “independent ministerial investigation”, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer in some ways. But did you discuss the terms of reference?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I did not discuss the terms of reference. I understood that the minister was looking at ways of getting to the bottom of this, as I was, and I advised him that whatever was decided, we were anxious to cooperate.