Evidence of meeting #57 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
Well, it was not unique, but it was certainly relative to NCPC under Dominic Crupi. So as a consequence of that, the audit would have taken those issues and dealt with them.
I wasn't speaking, though, about the poison work environment as it relates to outside of the force. We do have issues. I'm not suggesting that there's a poison work environment—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
No, I'm suggesting a poison work environment inside the force.
5:30 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
You mean inside of NCPC. I dealt with issues for the entire force--coast to coast to coast.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Correct.
You had mentioned that you were concerned about some of the senior executives' testimony before this committee. Could you tell me which of those you were most concerned about?
5:30 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
Well, I believe it was Mr. Williams who continued to ask for fulsome answers to the questions, and as I sat and listened, quite frankly, I shared your frustration, because the answers were not particularly fulsome and in some cases were evasive. So I don't know that I have to go into who the individuals were. You sat here and listened to the testimony. Certainly I shared the same frustration and was saddened by the lack of direct response by people in senior management positions in the RCMP giving evidence at this committee.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Gauvin, you mentioned on several occasions where you did and where you didn't have authority, and yet I see that you were exercising authority, in some cases, where you didn't have it. Who gave you the authority to actually take the money? If you weren't allowed to take the money from your A-base, who gave you the authority to take the money from the actual premiums?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Well, sir, we were between a rock and a hard place. We certainly couldn't charge it to pension; it had no relationship with pension. We couldn't charge it to appropriations because we have two legal opinions. There's only one place left, and that's the agreements.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Did you go to the membership and find out if they were okay with that?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Well, where else would we have charged it?
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I'm not asking you that, sir. You're saying in one case you couldn't charge to the A-base, you didn't have authority. But you're telling me that you charged it to some place where you didn't have authority as well.
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Well, I think we had authority, because we didn't have authority to administer insurance; therefore the premiums had to handle the administration.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You were on the pension advisory committee, you've mentioned that. You were there when Morneau Sobeco did their presentation, is that correct?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I really don't remember that meeting. I think I was probably there, but I don't remember that meeting.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You don't remember that meeting. You don't remember who requested that Morneau Sobeco actually make their presentation.
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
It would have been discussed with the pension advisory committee and the chairman would have made that decision, yes.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Can you table the minutes of that meeting for us, please?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
The other question I wanted to ask you is where was the $200,000 from Great-West Life charged to, the money that really didn't get any kind of product from them at all? What was that charged to?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
It would have also been charged, I believe, to the insurance plan.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
That was charged to the insurance premiums as well.
5:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Do you not find it disturbing that a contract was given to Morneau Sobeco that had to go through Great-West Life in order to manage?
5:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes, very disturbing.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
In all these things that were taking place, the escalation of the costs, Dominic Crupi continuing with contract after contract after contract after you apparently cancelled his contracting ability, did you not follow up after you took away that contracting capacity?
5:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No. I explained last week, sir, that going to Public Works we thought was a good thing, because Public Works is usually pretty tough on contracts. They are the experts in the government. What happened in this case is that he happened to find an individual within Public Works who colluded with him.