Evidence of meeting #58 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
John Wiersema  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone. Bienvenue à tous.

This is a three-hour meeting. The first hour will be spent with the Auditor General, talking about her estimates, and the second two hours will be an in camera session studying the reports.

I'm very pleased to welcome, colleagues, from the office of the Auditor General of Canada, the Auditor General herself, Sheila Fraser. She is accompanied by John Wiersema, deputy auditor general; Rick Smith, assistant auditor general; and Jean Landry, the acting comptroller.

I want to welcome each one of you.

I understand, Ms. Fraser, you have an opening statement.

3:30 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are very pleased to be here. I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to discuss our 2007-08 report on plans and priorities.

As you mentioned, I am accompanied today by John Wiersema, deputy auditor general; Rick Smith, assistant auditor general, strategic planning and professional practices; and Jean Landry, our acting comptroller.

As the legislative auditor, we provide objective information, advice, and assurance that can be used by parliamentarians to scrutinize government spending and performance.

Our financial audits provide assurance that the financial statements are presented fairly and in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles or other relevant standards.

Our special examinations assess the management systems and practices of crown corporations and provide an opinion on whether there is reasonable assurance that there are no significant deficiencies in the systems.

Using established criteria, our performance audits examine whether government programs are being managed with due regard for economy, efficiency, and environmental impact and whether measures are in place to determine their effectiveness. Our recommendations address the most serious deficiencies identified.

All our audit work is conducted in accordance with the standards set by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. It is guided by a rigorous methodology and quality management framework and is subjected to internal practice reviews and external reviews by peers. All of this provides assurance that you can rely on the quality of our work.

The Auditor General Act gives the office discretion to determine what areas of government to examine when doing performance audits.

We conduct risk assessments of federal departments in a number of management areas, such as human resources and information technology, in order to identify the most significant topics for audit. The 2004 international peer review of our performance audit practice lauded this as a good practice that adds robustness to our performance audits.

For 2007-08, we have $80.6 million in appropriations available to us through the main estimates and the equivalent of 625 full-time employees. With these resources, we plan to produce 28 performance audits of federal departments and agencies, as listed in attachment 1, including reports by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

The commissioner's reports will monitor the implementation of departments' sustainable development strategies and ministerial responses to environmental petitions. There will also be three performance audits of territorial governments.

We will also produce some 130 financial audits and other insurance engagements; 11 special examinations of crown corporations, which are also listed in attachment 1; and finally, our assessments of the performance reports of three federal government agencies.

Our Report on Plans and Priorities identified four priorities for 2007-2008. First, integrating changes to professional standards is a crucial aspect of ensuring the quality of the work in our office. As the standards become more complex, and as Canada moves to adopt international standards, we have identified a number of activities to address this priority to be accompanied by additional investment in methodology and training.

Our second priority is to put into effect the recent changes that Parliament has made to our mandate. With the additional ongoing funding recommended in December 2006 by the Parliamentary Advisory Panel on the Funding and Oversight of Officers of Parliament, we are confident that we will be able to carry out our mandate.

Several of our audits in the past few years have noted the growing weight of controls and reporting requirements associated with the delivery of federal government programs. This theme was echoed in the recent report of the Blue Ribbon Panel on grant and contribution programs. Our third priority is to identify options for how we can contribute to simplifying the administration of these programs while strengthening accountability for the spending of public funds.

Lastly, in 2007-2008 and beyond, in response to our growing needs and the increased competition for scarce professional audit personnel, we must strengthen our recruitment and retention efforts. Our multi-year recruitment and retention strategy is designed to respond to this priority.

Our 2007-2009 sustainable development strategy reconfirms our efforts to integrate environmental and sustainable development issues into our audits. In 1995, our act was amended to create the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. During this 10th year of implementation of these amendments, we have begun a review of our environment and sustainable development practice. An independent panel will determine if there are opportunities to strengthen our implementation of this mandate to better serve Parliament.

You may recall that we have been reviewing the timing and frequency of our reports to Parliament. The goal of our review is to identify a reporting schedule that more closely follows the parliamentary calendar.

With this in mind, we will present our next report to Parliament in late October, rather than in late November, as we have done in recent years. This will give committees about four more weeks to consider our report before the Christmas recess.

The October report will include the results of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development's monitoring of environmental petitions and sustainable development strategies. It will be followed in February 2008 by a more comprehensive commissioner's report, devoted to follow-up audits of previous work.

Finally, we will continue to implement our international strategy. As we noted in our report on plans and priorities, with the support of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada we recently submitted a bid to become the auditor of the International Labour Organization starting in 2008, and I am very pleased to inform you that our bid was successful.

Over the last couple of years we have been working to improve how we measure and report on our performance to Parliament. This has led us to identify a number of new measures and indicators for our performance and to focus our presentation of this material around six key headings: the value of our work to parliamentarians and other key users of our reports; the value of our work for the organizations we audit; how key users of our reports are engaged in the audit process; how key users of our reports and the organizations we audit respond to our findings; how our quality management framework is operating; and how our work is produced on time and on budget.

Our Report on Plans and Priorities presents a table summarizing our indicators and measures our recent performance and our targets for the coming year. These are included as attachment 2. Our upcoming performance report will give our first results against this improved framework.

As a way to assess our performance, it is our intent to survey members of this committee, and certain other committees of the House and Senate this year, with a short questionnaire concerning the value of our work. You may have already received the questionnaire. We thank you in advance for taking the time to provide us with your feedback so that we may provide you with the maximum possible value.

Finally, my staff and I very much appreciate the continuing support that we have received from this committee. We look forward to serving parliamentarians in the future through our expanded mandate.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser, as always.

We're going to go to the round, but we only have time for one round of seven minutes.

Ms. Sgro, seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. It's nice to see you again.

I always wonder after you leave what's going to come out of the presentation you gave us.

We notice that your planned spending on performance audits is going to go down from $43.9 million to $41.4 million. How are you going to achieve these savings in the cost of performance audits?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

It's not really savings in the costs. The number of performance audits are going to be reduced in the coming year, because we have to do more special examinations, which are a kind of performance audit, if you will, of the crown corporations. So as special examinations rise or fall, the number of performance audits we do varies as a consequence.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Can you elaborate a little bit on those special performance audits? Does that not still require a fair amount of time, money, and expertise to do?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The special examinations are very extensive audits of the crown corporations. Under the Financial Administration Act they are required to be done once every five years. We are required to give an opinion if the systems and practices in place in the crown corporation are there to provide efficiency, to safeguard assets...so they are very extensive audits. This year we're coming into several very large ones. For example, we will be doing VIA Rail, Farm Credit.... So we have to shift resources away from the performance audits to be able to complete those special examinations.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

How did you select those particular ones that you wanted to do the performance audit on?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The performance audit or the special examinations?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

The special examinations.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The special examinations now are required by law for all crown corporations. A few used to be exempt. It's really a question of when the last one was done. Now we have to do them within a five-year period, and there's a statutory requirement to table a report within five years of the last one. The schedule is pretty much set, so we can plan which ones are coming.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

In one of the previous meetings you mentioned your frustration with the Treasury Board Secretariat's departmental performance report. They had rejected a collective bargaining agreement. How long has the issue been outstanding, and when do you expect it to be resolved, or is it resolved?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

It is not yet resolved. We have two bargaining units within the office. One is for our support staff. That has been resolved. The other one is for our audit professionals. We reached an agreement with the union in June 2006. I understand the Treasury Board Secretariat has put forward that agreement to the board, but without their recommendation. We are still waiting for final resolution of that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Are you planning to have an independent performance audit of your management practices?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We would like to have another peer review, which would not be limited to the performance audit practice but the whole office. I would like to have that done certainly before the end of my mandate, probably in 2008-09. We've begun very preliminary discussions about having that done.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Can you clarify the schedule of planned audits for the upcoming fiscal year? Will there be a status report for 2008?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

There will be a status report for 2008, but it will be a status report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development on a selection of environmental audits that have been done over the last 10 years. So we will probably have 10 to 12 audits coming forward in that.

If you look at attachment 1, you will see the topics we will be looking at--for example, federal contaminated sites, invasive species, pesticides, international agreements.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

How were those particular ones selected?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Largely through a review of past audits, ones that we thought were still relevant and that appeared to us to be the more important ones.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, there's one minute if you want to take it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I notice in table 2 of the report by the Library of Parliament in the briefing notes that as we go forward your planned spending goes down from $80.6 million in 2007-08 to $79.2 million and then $78.6 million. I'm not sure if you have that before you. At the same time, the government has requested that you take a look at the financial statements of the 22 largest organizations within the government, on top of the regular work you do. How are you planning to manage this?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I will let Mr. Wiersema explain why this goes down, but essentially our work level is the same. We do not include in this the cost to audit departmental financial statements.

The government has indicated its intention to have financial statements audited, but we have made it very clear to government that we do not want to undertake audits unless the departments are actually ready. We are monitoring that with them, but many of them are not ready and will not be ready within the next year. So we have to assess with government which ones will be ready, when they will be ready, and what the financing will be.

We've indicated to the panel on funding of agents of Parliament that this is a future funding pressure that will come to the office, but we are not able at this point to ascertain how much and exactly when we will require those funds.

Perhaps John can explain just why the....

3:45 p.m.

John Wiersema Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Without making this too technical, we prepare our report on plans and priorities in accordance with the Treasury Board Secretariat guidelines. The numbers presented there are referred to as the Treasury Board reference levels. So they're the numbers that Treasury Board has already recorded in the system for the Office of the Auditor General, as they do with any other government organization. So the numbers presented here are our reference level numbers that the government has recorded in the books at this point. They do not yet reflect any adjustments for future funding pressures, like departmental financial statements.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Before I go to Mr. Laforest, I have a couple of questions I want to pose to the auditor on the environmental audits.

Is there a different reporting regime coming up?