Evidence of meeting #66 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
I have something else I want to get clarified too while we're at it. I understand that you may have provided some assistance to Mr. Crupi to get a barn up. Maybe it didn't work out very well.
4:50 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Disability Program & Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It wasn't a barn. He had this big old tractor and he wanted to cover it for the winter--
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
It was paid for. Okay.
In these transactions you mentioned receiving hockey tickets. Did you receive any benefit or gift from any of the other people we're dealing with here today?
4:50 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Disability Program & Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
From Great-West Life, not at all, and for Morneau Sobeco, when we had business meetings with them they brought in a working lunch and there was an annual golf tournament that was for all clients.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Thank you very much.
We've been anxiously waiting for Mr. Williams, and it's his turn, so go at it, Mr. Williams, for eight minutes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I had no idea that you were so anxious, Mr. Chairman, but thank you very much.
Mr. Crupi, are you aware of the audit by KPMG on Consulting and Audit Canada?
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You are aware of it, and Mr. Brazeau figures prominently on it. One of the major parts of the audit was to deal with the 30 NCPC contracts managed by Frank Brazeau at CAC. Of course you were the manager of the NCPC.
It's a quite damning document for a number of people, and you were mentioned as well, although not as prominently as others. I would expect that there would be some criminal investigations going on regarding this audit, in due course, and including the NCPC and its relationship with Consulting and Audit Canada.
If there is a criminal investigation, I think that would include your role, as far as these contracts with NCPC, because they come under your jurisdiction. I'm sure that would be a little uncomfortable for you, if that were to happen, right?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I've always maintained that I've never colluded with anyone. We had dealt with CAC with my representative, Mr. Koziol. He was told the rules to follow; I understood that he followed those rules.
That's really my only involvement with CAC, other than the odd e-mail where I said thank you for getting your contract through, or he would give me information. That's it, sir. I wouldn't be uncomfortable at all, because I've done nothing.
One more thing needs to said. I lost a job once this committee divulged where I was working.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
It's important to say, because I've been called all sorts of names here. In order to get employment at that job, all persons must take and pass a polygraph test, which I've done.
Staff Sergeant Frizzell asked me to take a polygraph during the investigation, and I said that I would. I have since taken one. I want to put on record that I'm comfortable with anything that I've said here, to the best of my recollection, because it was six and seven years ago.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
That was a statement that added another minute on my time, Mr. Chairman. I didn't ask these questions.
You seem to have the same answer as Mr. Gauvin did yesterday: that they were so far below me that I'm not responsible, because other people were doing the work and I just happen to be the manager; therefore you can't hold me responsible, because I didn't do the work; I thought these guys were up to par, and if they weren't, then why don't you go after them and not after me? That's what Mr. Gauvin said yesterday, and that seems to be what you're telling me today: that you were just the manager, so don't blame me. Is that right?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
There are two things to look at. One is that I've probably lost over $1 million in salary and benefits, so I have been held responsible for things. The second thing is-—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Crupi, you just told us that it was Mr. Koziol and others who advised you that all was well, and therefore you took them at their word.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
As a manager, you felt that you were no longer responsible, because you took them at their word.
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I didn't say I wasn't responsible; I took them at their word. Another important thing to note is that I've been told since that the organization now has five different people doing what I was expected to do as one person.
So you had to trust that people were doing their job, sir. I couldn't keep on top of everything. I tried my best.
Another thing that should be understood here is that I was a brand-new director. I had never been trained to be a director.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Mr. Crupi, I would ask you to try to keep your answers a bit shorter. We have limited time.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I know that you feel hard done by this investigation.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I appreciate that, but nonetheless I'm here to ask the questions. I would appreciate that you stick to the issues.
Mr. Gauvin testified yesterday that although he was about four levels above you and had little or no contact, he sat on the pension insurance advisory committee. Therefore, since you reported to that committee, you were in somewhat closer contact in that relationship. Is that correct?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
He was on the pension advisory committee. He was not on the insurance advisory committee.
That's where I was a resource that would bring information to that committee, yes, sir.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Did you keep the committee fully informed of what was going on regarding the pension issue and Great-West Life?