Public Accounts Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Karl Salgo]

I will happily speak to the issue of the orientation of new GIC appointees. I should say initially that when we say “new”, they're not always necessarily new to a role as a GIC appointment. We provide orientation whenever somebody receives a GIC appointment. Their welcome letter indicates that there's an expectation, in fact, that they participate in an orientation process. That orientation process is organized according to a menu, essentially, so that it's tailored to the particular needs of the individual and the organization they're in.

The senior personnel secretariat, one of my colleague secretariats within PCO, would make available to them a list of secretariats within PCO, within Treasury Board, and within other entities within government--a list of resources, essentially, and of assistant secretary and senior level individuals who are available to provide briefings to them, and substantial briefing materials in many cases, in a whole range of areas.

That ranges, for example, in the case of senior personnel itself, from explaining the terms and conditions of employment and their conflict of interest responsibilities to, in the case of the machinery of government secretariat that I'm part of, understanding where their organization fits within the larger framework of government, understanding the way that system works, and understanding things like portfolio coordination and the nature of a public servant's responsibilities in dealing with elected officials. There's a whole scope of things like that, as well as other areas such as management and control and oversight, that are offered by TBS.

There is a whole range of things. Individual GIC appointees do have some capacity to choose themselves what they need, because many of them.... You may have a seasoned public servant who knows a lot of these things or you may have somebody from outside the public sector who is not familiar with all aspects of this and may want more orientation--

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

So you do give a briefing session on all these aspects?

[Karl Salgo]

On all of these things--

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

What skill sets are required on these boards?

[Karl Salgo]

That's a more complex question, which my senior personnel colleagues would be better placed to speak to, but I will say that it varies according to the organization, according to statutory provisions, and according to the judgment, because ultimately they are Governor in Council appointees. They're ultimately ministers and--

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

What is the pool that they are chosen from?

[Karl Salgo]

Again, that will vary enormously, because you're talking about everything from deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers, who are generally drawn from the public service--

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The Auditor General says that there is a risk. I just want a quick answer from the Auditor General on the issue of serious abuse.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Please be very brief, Ms. Fraser.

[Sheila Fraser]

We were referring, I think, more specifically to two cases. There was the Privacy Commissioner in an audit we did in 2003. There was the correctional investigator in 2006. Even previous to that, there was the head of the Canada Labour Relations Board, which would have been in the late 1990s.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Could we have a written response? We will get the action plan anyway, so we'll see then.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Ratansi.

Mr. Weston, you five minutes.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

To start with, I'm going to tip my hat to my colleague opposite, which doesn't happen often. I very much admire Mr. Christopherson, even though he is an NDP member.

You do a lot of reading. It's also good to be able to take advantage of the experience of a former solicitor general in the context of the analysis we're conducting today.

To our witnesses, thank you so much for coming and for answering questions as you have done.

I have a very simple question for you, Ms. Fraser. If you were addressing a class of grade 5 students, what would you say is the largest problem that you have identified at this level of governance for small entities? I've read the materials a couple of times now, and today I've seen some of the reports, but I wonder what you would say at that level.

[Sheila Fraser]

I think what we see out of this is the challenge that they have, given the limited capacity. They don't have a lot of people. Most of these agencies have very few people working in them. They aren't able to have the expertise and knowledge they need to respond to all the requirements placed upon them. There are a lot of requirements placed upon them.

It's an issue of capacity and requirements. It gives them a great deal of challenge. As was mentioned, some of them are as small as two people.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. Wouters, if you were to answer the question, again for a group of 10-year-olds, what would you say is the one thing you need to address most generally in this area of governance?

[Wayne Wouters]

I think it's where the focus of the questioning has been, the reporting burden. When you have two people in an office, or five people, can they be expected to do their job, to fulfill their mandate, and undertake the same level of reporting as the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which has 10,000 people? It can take a lot of one's time to do what needs to be done.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I noticed that the size of the entities covered in this analysis ranges from two to 500 employees. Is that correct?

I'll come back to you, Ms. Fraser. I wonder if it would be useful to divide that fairly large spectrum into smaller substrata to perhaps, in a more focused way, target some of the recommendations.

[Sheila Fraser]

That's perhaps true, although in the report we do indicate that 68% of them have fewer than 100 people, so there are some very small organizations. Even for an organization of 500, to produce 100 reports a year is still a significant burden.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Again I have the same question, Mr. Wouters. In preparing for this meeting and in dealing with these kinds of questions, would you have preferred to be able to focus on one to 20 as a group, for instance, and come out with different conclusions?

[Wayne Wouters]

If you look at what we've done over the past year, both in the area of HR reporting and the MAF—a large assessment of the performance of departments—we've said to the small, small, folks, those with 50 people and fewer, that you don't have to send us a report to do your assessment. You don't have to fill out all the templates for the assessment requirements, but just come in for an interview and let's talk about what you're doing to ensure you're managing your resources appropriately. We can then have an assessment on the basis of a conversation, as opposed to heavy reporting.

So yes, I think you're on the right track. I think that is a way to categorize these organizations. The National Capital Commission has about 500 people, and they're regarded as a small agency. It's still small, but they can do more things than an organization with 20 people. It's true that for every hour these people are doing this kind of oversight, it's another hour taken from their mandate. That's what we always need to be cognizant of.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have one last question. How would you say morale has gone over the last reporting period as you have done this? I know it's a very subjective thing, but do you think morale has improved or declined as people understand that you're trying to address the gruelling levels of bureaucracy that may be encumbering them?

[Wayne Wouters]

I think it's a work in progress. We're not where we need to be. We're only getting through some of the pretty significant initiatives, but I think we have to go further before some of those agencies, particularly the smaller ones, can feel that they're maybe out from under the burden.

So I'm not going to sugar-coat this. We're not at the end of this journey; we working our way through it with them.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Madame Faille, you wanted to have something tabled.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Des Rosiers' great enthusiasm has made me think of a question. Can you provide us with the shared services strategy? You said you had made a presentation and a report on the strategy and that people had praised it saying that you were headed in the right direction.

Can you share that report with us?