Public Accounts Committee on May 12th, 2009

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But I would like a ruling. It's a point of order

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Christopherson has made, I guess, a statement that he believes the motion may be out of order, and he's given his reasons. Does anyone else want to speak to that?

I guess we have everyone speaking to it.

Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

From what I understand, the mandate of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts includes a “review of and report on the Public Accounts of Canada and all reports of the Auditor General of Canada”. From that, it would clearly be the case that this is not within the mandate of this committee.

But it is within the mandate of the government operations committee. In fact, my understanding is that they're actually studying the stimulus package, the whole package, and will be making a report on it, as the Auditor General is going to be issuing a report on the stimulus funding. And that's where we fit in. We will fit in as a committee based on her report on it.

I'm amazed, quite honestly, that this has come from the opposition, since all through, our discussions on our reports are not about what is happening in the future, but about reports of what has happened in the past—in fact, even reports that have gone back two and a half years.

So I obviously can't support this motion, first because it's not within our mandate, as clearly laid out in the committee responsibilities, but also because we have other committees that have that mandate, under government operations, and that are looking at it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

I'm going to tell the committee now that I'm not going to make a ruling today on this issue. I want to take it under advisement and study it a little further.

But there are a number of people on the list. Perhaps what I'll do is go over the list, but I'm going to ask you to keep your comments to less than 60 seconds.

Ms. Crombie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Is it on Mr. Christopherson's...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It's on whether the motion is in order.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay, I'll address that first, and then I want to address the other motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No. When we rule whether it's in order, then we can come back and discuss the merits of the—

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I understand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I believe the motion is in order. It is within our mandate to review and report, as Mr. Shipley has rightly said. If you recall, we questioned the Auditor General on the expenditure of the $3 billion, and she indicated to us that she would be doing audits on the $3 billion expenditure, beginning in June. I think that's what makes it incumbent on us to continue to audit the funds.

This motion would allow her to expedite her audits and keep them on an ongoing basis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

For some of the reasons, I'll be really quick.

It's clearly, in my mind, out of order, from having served on public accounts for a number of years.

The Auditor General has stated that basically she is auditing this as it unfolds. If the Auditor General reports back to this committee and her report deems the process to be unacceptable or acceptable, then we make recommendations based on that. To now move in and preempt the Auditor General on this and basically take over her analysis is not in our purview in this committee.

I think we're really overstepping the bounds, and sadly, this is crass politics. It's unfortunate that the committee heads in this direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Young.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I agree that the motion is out of order. It's not within the purview of the committee to direct reports like this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

First of all, I'm also surprised that the opposition is coming up with this, because it's clearly a duplicitous position. They're saying that on the one hand we should not be looking at new information; we should only be looking at reports that have already been done. Now they're introducing a new motion in which they want to look at new reports.

It's a duplicitous position. I don't think it's this committee's mandate to be looking at these reports. We should be looking at the AG's reports once they're completed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Ms. Ratansi is next. Then, as I said, I'm going to study this matter a little further and come back.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I firmly believe that it is within the purview of this committee, for the basic reason that the finance committee is going to be looking after the $250 billion. No committee is touching the $3 billion.

The problem is that the government, when it was asked to present this, said it is under cabinet confidentiality. The money belongs to the taxpayers of Canada, not to the Conservative government.

I think it is important that we be circumspect, because the situation is unprecedented. The $3 billion that was demanded was there during the economic crisis to create jobs. All we are asking is whether in three months, if the money is not utilized, it will go into the consolidated revenue fund; give us an analysis of the drawdown. We're asking very simple questions, and I think it behooves the members of public accounts to be accountable. It behooves the government to be transparent. The Conservative government cannot say in one sentence “We are conservatives, and we believe that taxpayers' money must always be spent in an accountable, ethical, and transparent manner”, when we do not even know whether the jobs have been created or not, or whether the aggregate money has been drawn down.

Mr. Chair, as the public accounts committee, we have a mandate to ensure transparency and accountability of utilization, especially in this unprecedented economic environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Make a brief comment only, Mr. Weston. Then we're going to....

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, there's going to be no decision, no vote, so you can....

Mr. Weston, be very brief, and then I'm going to adjourn.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's fine. I'll pass.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. As I said, I'm not going to make any ruling on this today. I'll consider it, and then we'll come back to the committee.

We'll see you on Thursday, colleagues. We're having the Auditor General here with all six reports that she tabled today.

The meeting is adjourned.