Evidence of meeting #27 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Flageole  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Kevin Lynch  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Brian Goodman  Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Patricia Hassard  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Rob Walsh  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Yvan Roy  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet and Counsel to the Clerk of the Privy Council, Legislation and House Planning and Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office

5:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Lynch, with great respect, you go on like everything is fine. You have the Assistant Auditor General sitting beside you who just said today that your response to the recommendations gave “little assurance or definite undertakings” as to how you intend to address this. Given the fact that we've been dealing with it since 1997, why should I as a member of Parliament walk away from here believing that you have any better sense of the urgency and that you're actually doing something other than wonderful words?

Hold that thought.

Mr. Goodman, I'm assuming that since 2006 you've been raising the alarm with the minister about this as you saw your inability to stop the increase in unresolved cases. Could I just get a sense from you what action you took to try to push the government to raise the alarm?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Let's have a brief answer from Mr. Goodman, and then we're going to move on to Mr. Young.

5:05 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I have made every minister—and there have been three since I was appointed interim chairperson in March 2007—and every minister's chief of staff and appointments person aware of the increasing intake and of the difficulty that was being posed by the shortage of members.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Christopherson. Thank you, Mr. Goodman.

Mr. Young, you have five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to say something that perhaps our guests here today don't feel comfortable saying and that everybody knows. I suspect one of the key reasons for vacancies is that as soon as someone accepts an appointment or proposed appointment from a political party or government, the media Googles their name and does everything they can to find some connection: Did they ever join a political party? Did they ever donate to a political party? Did they ever have any business with the government? Did they work for a political party? Did they work for the government?

Then they drum up any connection, however loose, to the politicians or to a political party, as if there's any shame in belonging to a party, which there isn't. In fact, to me, it's a key part of citizenship. People are reluctant to put their names forward, and that has to be a key reason for vacancies.

Another reason is that there have been inappropriate appointments that were not monitored closely.

I arrived here last October. I wasn't here in 2004, but we saw a number of key appointments from the previous government of people who had to step down or were fired for outrageous office expenses. There was David Dingwall; there was Alfonso Gagliano, who was recalled in relation to the sponsorship scandal; there was Michel Vennat, fired from the Business Development Bank of Canada; Jean Pelletier, fired as chairman of VIA Rail. All of this had to do with matters of perhaps entitlement or matters related to the sponsorship scandal.

In 2006, we had a new government. We had a new process based on transparency and merit, which you have administered.

Back in the 1980s, I read a book by Jeffrey Simpson, from the Globe and Mail. At the time I thought it was the definitive work, and I think it probably still is, on public appointments. He said that parties can make appointments and that there's nothing wrong with them as long as they're merit-based. Merit is what the system is based on: are they qualified to do the job? A prime minister and a government need people on the agencies, boards, and commissions who want them to succeed. They have to answer to the voters for successful implementation of a platform and an agenda, and you need qualified people who want them to succeed.

So you have those things working for you; you have a guide for ministers now, a process in advance to let the ministers know when people need to be reappointed; you have consulted with other jurisdictions on best practices; you have a new public accounts commission; you have a code of practice. I know now that if a constituent calls me who is interested in a public appointment, I can send them to the website. I say, “Go to the website and read it. If you think it's a match for your jobs and skills, please apply for it.” I think that's a great, open process. You've also been able to say that vacancies have been reduced and appointments have been increased. I think you deserve to be congratulated on administering a new system.

I have a question for Mr. Goodman, though. Is it possible that you have set the standards too high? I'll tell you why. I have a constituent who used to be on the board, for I think almost 10 years. He did a thousand cases and hearings. He had good written reviews. He said that he'd happily come back and help get rid of the backlog, but they asked him to write this test again.

My question to you is, why would you ask someone who has a good record on the board and who had been there for 10 years to rewrite a test?

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

First of all, I believe I know the case to which you're referring.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I don't want to get personal. I'm talking about the big picture.

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

No, I'm not going to get personal, but I think it's important to recognize that this person was appointed under a former process, not under the current process. It was the determination of Minister Finley that everyone should have to go through the new process and everyone—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

You mean even former people?

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

Yes, even former people.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

It sounds as though the standard is extremely high. Is that fair to say?

5:10 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

No, I wouldn't say that. I would say it's rigorous. The fact of the matter is that one of the criticisms of Mr. Harrison was that one could proceed to an interview without receiving a passing mark on the test.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you.

I served on the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario; I was an appointee there. I noticed on that board—and it's fairly normal, in my understanding, in the province of Ontario—that board members find out at the last minute or sometimes after. They say to stay on, and the reappointments come after the fact. I don't know whether that gives you any comfort, but it seems to be a normal practice in other jurisdictions.

I'd like to ask Mr. Lynch what steps the Privy Council Office has taken to ensure that the GIC appointees are properly trained and oriented. That is absolutely key. You find good people to make sure they can get up to speed quickly.

5:10 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Kevin Lynch

Let me give a little bit of context. There has been an issue raised about whether progress is being made versus whether we have an optimal situation. I would argue that progress is being made.

There are six areas that the Auditor General has raised over a period of time. Let me flag first the management of vacancies. I'll come back quickly to this. Second is communication about the process. Third is communication about decisions. Fourth is dealing with expiry of term. Fifth is the transparency of the appointment process, and the sixth is orientation and training.

As you'll see in the Auditor General's report, we have introduced fairly substantial changes to the orientation and training, which are acknowledged. For example, the Canadian School of Public Service has developed a new training program for all GIC appointees. Privy Council Office has implemented a one-on-one orientation session for chairs, CEOs, and heads of agencies, and almost all appointees of crown corporations and small entities surveyed by the OAG confirm that they received orientation and training upon appointment, including orientation concerning expected standards of conduct. That is a significant response to legitimate concerns raised by the Auditor General going back a decade concerning what best practice should be.

But Mr. Chair, I'd like to come to the vacancy issue, because it's been raised by a number of members here. It is important to look at both the numbers that are reported in the Auditor General's report and the interpretation of the numbers. The numbers come from a survey that was done over 33 months from January 2006 to September 2008, 33 months during which there were two elections and a change of government, which pose challenges. The measurements that are provided really look at the average tenure opening, but the report also provides, Mr. Chairman, a very interesting snapshot as of September 20, 2008, of where this changing process has come to.

Let me just flag five—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Flag them just briefly, Mr. Lynch.

5:10 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Kevin Lynch

Of director positions in crown corporations, by September 20, 2008, only 7% were vacant. All chair positions in crown corporations were filled by September 2008, which was a subject criticism in previous reports. Only three CEO positions in crown corporations were not staffed, and in two of the three cases there was no need to staff the positions because the two institutions were being phased out. As of September 20, 8% of positions in small entities were vacant, and all head of agency positions were filled, as well as 85% of the IRB.

That is a substantial improvement, relative to taking a snapshot of any period of time in the previous one. If you think of this as being a process in which the Auditor General is making very useful suggestions and the government and the public service are trying to implement them and it takes time, I think it is actually not a bad way to look at where we stand today.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much.

Mr. Young.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I believe I said that being a member of a political party is a key part of citizenship. I meant to say it can complement citizenship.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Ms. Ratansi, you have five minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be sharing my time with Mr. Kania.

I have a couple of questions. As I've been listening to what Mr. Kramp said and what has been said around the table, I looked at the quotation from the gentleman in question, and it's beside the point.

I have a question for you, Mr. Lynch. In the announcements—the accountability framework, guidelines, etc.—there are not many teeth. They are very weak on implementation. My question is this. The appointment of the public appointments commissioner has not taken place after the first one was rejected. If the Prime Minister is not appointing another suitable person to the committee, would it not make sense to save the $1 million that it is costing, to shut down the public accounts committee—no, the public appointments—

5:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Kevin Lynch

I don't think you want me to answer that.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

No, the public accounts committee is very good; it's PAC. They have the same acronym. I mean the public appointments commissioner, because I don't know where it's going to go. I know you have a secretariat at the moment. What is this body doing at the moment and what should it do if there is no one at the helm?

5:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Kevin Lynch

Let me perhaps ask Ms. Hassard to respond.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Patricia Hassard

What I can say is that the government has expressed its intention to establish the commission at a time of its choosing. Meanwhile, the secretariat is actually preparing for an eventual code of practice and a system that will be very rigorous, very—

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I don't want that answer, sorry. That's not the answer. I asked a very specific question. It is costing $1 million a year. Should you shut it down and let the secretariat function, and then whenever the Prime Minister wants—whoever the Prime Minister is—when they wish to appoint somebody else, should they do it then? That's the question. I've heard about the rigorous process before.