Public Accounts Committee on March 8th, 2011

[Bill Matthews, Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management and Analysis Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I can't respond exactly to the question about the expenses for that department. What you're dealing with under “Information” is cost related to IT telecommunications. Those budgets from ministers' offices are set each year on an individual basis. So the expenses for each minister's office are set through a process that is centralized. The actual reasons for variances—

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Sorry, the column on information, what does that entail?

[Bill Matthews]

What's actually in that column?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

What does that mean, “Information”? Could you elaborate?

[Bill Matthews]

It's costs related to communication, information technology, those types of things.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

The reason I ask is that the current Minister of Immigration is stuck in a scandal where he's used ministerial resources for partisan fundraising. That's why I want clarification on why his costs were so high. I wanted to determine if you had looked into that.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I don't think it's proper for a member of this committee to be making allegations at the committee. Reporting on information, asking for responses—that's fine. But to deliberately go out and accuse people who are not here and have no opportunity to respond or deal with the department in question, that is out of order.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

This is all public knowledge. The minister has apologized for this. This information refers to questions asked in the House. It's all public information. This has to do with the minister's expenditures. We are dealing with expenditures. He's the one who said it was only $10. He made a dollar association with the letterhead. I wanted to clarify what those costs were and why they were so high in comparison with those of other departments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Fair enough, Mr. Bains, but I think we can ask the question without inflammatory language.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

I appreciate that.

So getting to the point with regard to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, the reason I wanted to highlight that was to determine why this figure was so high, but we'll follow up on that later on.

With respect to a lapse in funding, this has raised some questions, and it caught my attention in the case of two programs under Citizenship and Immigration Canada. One was for grants in support of a multiculturalism program in which 99% of the funding was not used and lapsed, and the other was for contribution support of the community historical recognition program. Treasury Board, is this program designed just to cut ribbons and make announcements? Is that why it wasn't used? Was it a reflection of poor planning, something they announced but had no desire to carry into effect? Or is it simply a reflection of incompetence?

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I have a point of order.

That's not a fair question to ask the officials

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Young, do you have a point of order?

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Yes. It's not a fair question to ask the officials. He has expressed a political opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Young, I've already admonished Mr. Bains about using inflammatory language.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

There's nothing inflammatory about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

If he can avoid inflammatory language, it's a fair question to ask. I think all of us have exactly the same numbers that he's referring to.

Go ahead, Mr. Bains.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

In respect of lapsed funding, there are three reasons that I can determine. Can you comment on that? Is this program designed simply for cutting ribbons and making announcements? Is this a reflection of poor planning? Or are we looking at a simple case of incompetence?

[James Ralston]

I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the program in question to be able to respond.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

It has to do with the grants in support of the multiculturalism program.

[James Ralston]

Yes, I understand. But I'm not familiar with the purposes of that program. I think those questions would be better directed to the department involved.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Does anyone else want to comment on that?

The next question I have is with respect to what was made public under the victims of crime initiative last year. The cost to taxpayers is only $4.8 million, and yet the government spent $6 million in advertising for this program.

Treasury Board, are you aware of any programs where the ad money was greater than the actual program? Has that ever happened? I would also like to ask the Auditor General the same question.

[James Ralston]

I'm not aware of the details of that program. Frankly, as I already said, the details of programs are questions that are better addressed to the departments. Our responsibility is for the accumulation of these numbers.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

To Mr. Wiersema, are you aware of any program of the government, like this example that I have here, where the government has spent more money on advertising, $6 million on advertising for this program, and only $4.8 million was actually given out? This is the victims of crime initiative that they announced last year. Are you familiar with any of the programs where the advertising has been more than the actual program cost?