Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 5th, 2011

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Our government put forward the Federal Accountability Act. I want to ask the interim Auditor General, can you explain for the committee what this legislation has done to improve the auditing of the federal government?

[John Wiersema]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have the legislation in front of me, so I am doing this from memory. I believe the Federal Accountability Act provided a basis in legislation for the establishment of internal audit functions in all our departments and agencies, so the requirement for internal audit now exists in federal legislation.

I believe the Federal Accountability Act also put in place the requirement that departments establish departmental audit committees with independent external members. I believe this has been a significant enhancement to improved public administration as well.

Those are two provisions of that legislation. As I'm sure the member is aware, it was quite a long and complex piece of legislation. But those are two things that I believe specifically deal with strengthening the audit function in government.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you. And as you said, it has made significant improvements in internal auditing of government. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

There is still time left on the government clock.

Mr. Dreeshen.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Good. I have an opportunity to get this question in. You were also talking about legislated standards and that this was one of the impediments that was involved.

We've talked about water and waste water systems on reserves. The government does have a bill that we're looking to re-introduce that addresses this concern, the proposed Safe Drinking Water for First Nations Act. Can you explain why this process might be more effective than some of the other concerns you had about the way in which programs are being delivered?

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Mr. Campbell.

[Ronnie Campbell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I understand it, the proposed legislation would allow for the creation of regulations and the ability to bring into play provincial legislation that would provide a regulatory regime surrounding water on reserves for the first time. The concerns that were raised in our report were that once the bill gets passed and the regulations get written, the government is looking to have a phased-in approach under which they would also have to apply for funding to do it. So notwithstanding the great progress that's been made there, it looks like it could be many years before people in communities can expect those standards to be in place.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you.

Sorry, time has expired.

Over to Monsieur Caron; you have the floor, sir.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to use my remaining time to come back to an answer you gave to my colleague with respect to the internal review.

If I am not mistaken, you mentioned that you were unaware of an internal review having been carried out at Infrastructure Canada regarding the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund. Did I get that right?

[John Wiersema]

Yes, you did, Mr. Chair.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Do you agree that such an internal review did not take place?

[John Wiersema]

I'm not aware that an internal audit has taken place of the G-8 legacy infrastructure fund, Mr. Chairman.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Had there been such a review, would you have heard about it and been made aware of it?

[John Wiersema]

It is possible that the government has undertaken an internal audit or its own review of this and has not shared that information with the Office of the Auditor General. We have not specifically posed the question to the government, so that would be a question you'd have to confirm with government officials.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

My second question is also connected to a question you were asked earlier by my colleague, but I will pose it in more general terms.

What limitations apply to a minister's involvement in a department's internal review process? How far can he go and where should he draw the line with respect to an internal review process?

[John Wiersema]

I believe a minister could quite appropriately call for a review or an internal audit of some aspect of his or her department's operations. I do not believe there are any prohibitions on that, nor would it necessarily be inappropriate.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

When a review such as this is underway, to what extent can the minister get involved in it? Where should he draw the line? Are there limits that should be respected with respect to an internal review process, once it is underway?

[John Wiersema]

Thank you for your question.

The question is somewhat hypothetical. I am not aware of any specific rules in government, nor do I believe the government needs any specific rules, that would govern the extent of a minister's involvement in an internal review or an internal audit of the department.

It would be unusual. The minister and the deputy minister of the departments are the recipients, the clients, of the reports. But I'm not aware of any rules as to whether or not that minister should or should not participate and the degree to which they should participate in those audits or reviews.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you.

Mr. Kramp, you have the floor, sir.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Campbell brought back a little bit of history with Mr. Williams and with regard to the educational file on first nations, and, quite frankly, it is tremendously disturbing. I can recall sitting on that committee back then with Mr. Christopherson. At that point, for the previous 20 years we hadn't been able to close the education gap. Here we are seven or eight years later and we still have significant difficulties.

So I'm deeply disturbed, as I think most Canadians are. Quite frankly, all of the partners, whether you're first nations, province or federal...there is obviously shared jurisdiction.

My concern is this. Mr. Campbell, we now finally have some tripartite agreements. We have six of them in place now. Is this a step forward?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I believe it is. I know that sometimes they are politically difficult to get to, but you also see them in child and family services as well. So you're beginning to see the emergence of bringing the provinces to the table.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Right. Well, I'm greatly heartened that Minister Duncan has struck up a very sound working relationship with the AFN now on a joint action plan. Do you have any information on that at all yet, or is this something that you'll obviously be, hopefully in the future, auditing with more positive results?

[Ronnie Campbell]

That's correct, Mr. Chairman. We have no information on that. We haven't done any audit work there yet.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Have you--

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, Mr. Kramp, but it goes fast.