Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 9th, 2013

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Do you actually have a marine unit on the Great Lakes in the Niagara region, Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, up and down the Niagara River?

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

Yes, there is. There is also a maritime security operation centre that's just being built in that area.

There's another key component about this border and that's the shiprider program that is integrated with our U.S. colleagues. We operate jointly on the same vessel. The U.S. or Canadian vessel goes back and forth across the borders for enforcement purposes.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

The maritime piece is a bit of a hot potato, to be honest, when it comes to the new building, but that's a local issue. I'll leave that one alone, quite frankly.

I wanted you to give us a sense of how many partners there are, because clearly the Auditor General's office has talked about it. You've given us some sense of what you intend to do. The Auditor General has spoken about the lack of ability by both agencies, the RCMP and CBSA, to actually measure.... Therefore they do not know where the resources should go or whether they have enough. Those are my words, not yours. I heard Mr. Bolduc say that they think they have enough, but the problem is if you can't measure it, I'm not sure you know that. You may have too much, in defence of the government. You may have too many, but you don't know that either. My sense is that you probably don't have enough, but that's a personal view.

With the number of agencies you have to deal with, even though you have a joint management structure, how are you integrating all of those pieces into a performance measurement system that will meet the needs that you've committed to in this Auditor General's report?

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

Therein lies the challenge. Specifically it's through more discussion.

You talked about enough resources. When it comes to the CBSA and RCMP and our other law enforcement partners, we have to work smarter. There's always room to improve. We do our best to deconflict. You've got so many.... For example in Ontario, a number of law enforcement agencies are all chasing the same carrot sometimes, or in the past that was the case. Law enforcement has done an admirable job in deconflicting through provincial associations.

The next step is to define performance measures. How do you do that? How do you integrate them or weave them into all of those agencies so that it becomes meaningful?

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

I hear what you're saying about doing it smarter. The sense is that if we do it smarter, then perhaps we need less or we'll manage with what we have. The problem is if you don't measure it, you have no idea. If there's a scathing piece in this report, it is that both agencies haven't at this point been able to manage the performance aspect of it, in the sense of knowing what that information is so you can actually allocate the resources.

I understand your earlier comments around understanding your business, and you do by the way. Kudos to both organizations on knowing your business. The problem is that you're not able to let us, or the Auditor General in this case, know that if you moved this resource, it was the appropriate thing to do. Your case study may say that this is how you do this; the problem is that you may have actually needed an additional person or two fewer people, or you may not have needed to be there quite as long.

That hampers your ability to do the things you need to be doing to convince us that this is how you should be resourced because you're doing the job effectively, because you can't actually demonstrate that you are, even though you probably are. This leaves both agencies in a real quandary. I'm not sure how you intend to address this, other than talking about the pieces you're going to do, and the commitments you're going to make. I'm looking at whether the action plan will tell me that these commitments are under way and are going to be attained.

This is going to have to be quick, Mr. Slinn and Mr. Bolduc.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

The action plan for the RCMP lays out that we will establish a working group to define what those performance measures are and to work through some of your questions. They were good points as well.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

It would be nice if we had it in front of us.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

I'm sorry for having to say it, sir, but we can't actually record a nod of your head.

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

Mr. Albas, you have the floor, sir.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I appreciate all of our witnesses coming in to testify and giving us a clear picture as to what this Auditor General's report is calling for and the response that's been laid.

First, to correct the record, I said earlier that 90,000 people come across the border every day. I have to give credit to the MP for Sault Ste. Marie; he said it's actually 270,000, with 90,000 of them being foreign nationals. I stand corrected. You're a very good member for keeping an eye on the details. I see why your people elected you.

If we go to pages 28 and 29, someone brought up timelines in the report. I notice under paragraph 5.28 it says, “This plan will be fully implemented by the end of June 2014”. The next one, paragraph 5.38, says by “March 2014”. If you go to paragraph 5.47, it says “performance reports by January 2014”.

I want to make sure that my colleagues are fully aware that in the report, the response from both CBSA and the RCMP says they will be seeking compliance and within a relatively short timeframe, which I think is helpful for the people back home. We want to see these improvements made.

In referring to that, Mr. Simms mentioned three initiatives that rely heavily on advance information. I believe it's paragraph 5.27 he was referring to that relies on advance information. Then when you look at the next paragraph, 5.28, the recommendation is to “implement its action plan to improve the quality...”.

Mr. Bolduc, could you briefly cover this initiative, the accepted recommendation, and particularly talk about the timeline?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

On API-PNR, there are a couple of things that we have started. First, we needed to improve the quality of information, so a working group was set up with the airlines to engage with them on the importance of providing accurate information. Also, CBSA will be producing for each airline a sort of report card on their performance vis-à-vis the transmission of information. These things have started.

We will also make sure that we have a better understanding of the correlation between the system capacity and the transmission of information from airlines. Finally, there will be a message that will be sent to an airline upon completion of the information transmittal on a per flight basis.

There are a series of commitments. Some of them have already been started, and it is the commitment of CBSA that by June 2014 all of those action items will have been completed.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'm very happy to hear that.

So I get a sense here, under the list of recommendations on pages 28 and 29, this is almost like an action plan in itself. I imagine that some of the pertinent information that would accompany the RCMP's as well as CBSA's action plan would probably be very similar to what has been identified here.

Is that correct?

[Martin Bolduc]

Correct.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

And you, Mr. Slinn?

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

Yes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay, good. Well, a lot of the information, including the timeline, is laid out for us.

I want to go back to a question Mr. Carmichael asked the Auditor General's department. Mr. Harris also mentioned talking about cuts.

This question is for Mr. Bolduc. Has the government increased front-line border guards since 2006?

[Martin Bolduc]

I don't have the specific number with me.

I can tell you that the front line was not affected by the recent deficit reduction action plan initiative. The CBSA committed $143 million, but no cuts were made to the front line.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Again, you feel that it's staffed well, and you have enough staff also to complete your action plan that you will be sending in, or the recommendations, I should say, that the Auditor General has made.

You feel that with the staff you have you can carry out the accepted recommendations, all of them.

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes. There is no resource implication with the commitments we've made.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Is that it, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Yes, I'm afraid so.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you again to all of our witnesses. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, Mr. Albas.

Colleagues, I've done quick base touching with the leads of the three caucuses, and to my understanding there would be agreement to continue the balance of the meeting.

We've gone through our rotation once. Our normal practice is that by agreement, we continue to use up the allotted time of the meeting. We would then simply go back to the beginning with the party slots in place, and individuals would drop into those, as we do in the regular round.

Do I have agreement to continue?