Public Accounts Committee on March 7th, 2024

[Andrew Hayes]

To answer the second question first, we haven't seen other examples of this happening. However, I will say unequivocally that it shouldn't happen. Contractors should not be involved in writing the requirements for the contracts that they ultimately bid on in a competitive process.

In terms of the question about the RCMP, we did have a conversation with the RCMP in which we identified that we had information that they might be interested in. All of our files contain the information available from the departments and the analysis that we've done, so the RCMP can see from our files exactly who has been involved from our perspective.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. You do have on your files indications of which individuals were part of this rigging process, yet what we're hearing from government officials is that they're still investigating.

Ms. Reza, do you want to comment on that? If Mr. Hayes has that information, presumably you do as well.

[Andrew Hayes]

I might just add that we did provide some information to the committee—I believe it was on Tuesday—about where and how the company was involved in setting the requirements for the contract. I believe that....

I'll turn it back over—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, but I am tight for time.

In the time I have left, very quickly, Ms. Reza, have other instances of this rigging of contracts occurred?

[Arianne Reza]

I am not aware of any, but I'll turn here, because we actually post them—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Can you tell us that it hasn't happened in any other cases, or you're just unsure?

[Catherine Poulin]

As I said earlier, we have an internal investigation team. Many cases are referred to this team each year. Its investigations can cover a number of topics. I don't think that this is the first we've heard of possible supplier wrongdoing in a process. That said, given the number of investigations—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I'm sorry again. It's just because of time.

It seems that you're saying that there may be other instances that are being investigated, and I think we'll need more information on that.

Chair, in the time I have left, I want to move a motion. I move as follows:

That the committee report to the House that it invites the President of the Treasury Board, Anita Anand, to appear for no less than two hours in relation to the ArriveScam study, and that this meeting occur within three weeks of this motion being adopted.

Having moved the motion, I will now speak to it—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just hold—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Hold on just one second. I want to consult with the clerk, Mr. Genuis, but first I'll hear the point of order from Ms. Shanahan, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes, Chair. Again we're having this stunt sprung on us by Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's not a point of order.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

—and I call for a suspension of this meeting, please.

Suspend the meeting so that we can discuss and receive the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. You're reading my mind.

I'm just going to consult with the clerk for a second. Hold on, please.

All right. I see hands going up.

Mr. Genuis, you'll be back, but first I'm going to suspend for five minutes. I'm going to give our witnesses a chance to stretch their legs, because they're not excused yet, unfortunately.

I'm hoping that this will go relatively quickly, but you never know with committees, so I will suspend for five minutes. Then I will come back to Mr. Genuis, and then I will proceed with the speaking list.

This meeting is suspended for five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will bring the members back to order.

Witnesses, you're welcome to float around the room as you would like. I will certainly give you a heads-up. You'll probably be able to hear it. You don't need to stay affixed to the table, but of course you're welcome to.

I have a speaking order. I'm going to go again to Mr. Genuis and then to Ms. Khalid, Ms. Kusie and Mrs. Shanahan.

First, I would like to have UC to change the name of the program in the motion so that it is “ArriveCAN”. I'm not looking for discussion on this. I would just like your consent to do that. Are there any objections?

Seeing none, it is “ArriveCAN” in this motion that members are debating.

Mr. Genuis, we're back to you. You're welcome to make your rhetorical flourishes on the floor, but not in the motion that this committee will consider.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Next time I put “ArriveScam” in a motion, I will add the appropriate trigger warning at the end of the motion.

I guess at the beginning of the motion would make more sense—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, on a point of order, that's not necessary. We can have respectful adult conversations—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Shanahan—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Does she understand what a point of order is?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Shanahan, you are on the list and we will get to you.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I think we might need a remedial refresher on the Standing Orders and which standing orders you can invoke if you disagree with something someone is saying.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I would love for that to happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

On a point of clarification, that would apply to all parties, I think, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

Anyway, I did want to speak to this motion, which is a motion about asking the minister of the Treasury Board to come before this committee to answer for what happened in the arrive scam scandal. We've heard some discussion, even at today's meeting, about this issue of ministerial accountability. Are ministers accountable? To what extent are ministers accountable for what happens in their government?

As far as I can discern, the best defence that Liberal members can muster of the government's action in the context of the arrive scam scandal is to try to convince us that ministers of the Crown do absolutely nothing, that four ministers of procurement since this pandemic started were not involved in setting policies, making decisions and giving direction as it relates to procurement.