Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Mario Pelletier]

I cannot speak to the Russian capability and priorities and so on.

We've actually been serving the north with seven icebreakers that we send every summer. As I said, a couple of years ago it was up to nine. They do the work.

We have levels of service that we need to meet as we provide services to industry, and we meet those levels of service over 95% of the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's just about your time, Mr. Kram. Thank you.

Mr. Dong, you have five minutes, please.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming today. My first question goes to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Ms. Gibbons, earlier we heard questions about the effect of climate change. I want to hear from you. In the last decade or two, how has climate change posed a challenge to your department when it comes to the Arctic?

[Annette Gibbons]

I think that just the overall changes in the environment would be taken into account as we figure out what our approach is in the Arctic, both for Fisheries and Oceans and for the Coast Guard. We've talked extensively in the Coast Guard about enabling more marine traffic. That is something that we need to be equipped to respond to. We've talked about the various ways we'd do that.

In terms of other impacts, there are changes to fisheries from climate change, including in the Arctic. In some cases, there are fish that move north—salmon, for example, are moving further north—so we then make sure that our science assessments for managing different fisheries are fully incorporating those sorts of changes.

Those are a couple of examples.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

On the fishery data collection, do we have a system that collects data to assess the risk to commercial fisheries and guard our waters against piracy fisheries? Is there any action on that?

[Annette Gibbons]

We're involved in a lot of different activities with respect to illegal and unreported fishing, which is a problem all over the world. That, of course, would include the Arctic.

Part of how we participate in working against illegal and unreported fishing is through our involvement in various regional fish management organizations with other countries. In the Arctic, of course, that would include involvement with Denmark and other countries.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Do we have the capability to work with our allies to defend our waters from illegal fisheries? If not, what investment should this government consider to make sure we do have that capability?

[Annette Gibbons]

We work extensively with our allies on it, and we'll be working further with them. The Indo-Pacific strategy, I would note, includes funding for a shared ocean fund, which is intended to be used, at least in part, to do more on illegal and unreported fishing with other countries.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Does your ministry work in silos, or do you have ongoing collaboration with the ministry of defence when it comes to surveillance and the potential threat to our Arctic territory?

[Annette Gibbons]

We would be working with DND through the Coast Guard. As well, DFO's conservation and protection officers are very active with their colleagues in the RCMP, for example, on the management of fisheries and the management of conservation efforts.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

From the legislation side, do we need to do more or offer you more tools to fulfill that responsibility?

[Annette Gibbons]

The Fisheries Act is updated every five years, and there is a further review of the act coming up in 2024. Certainly in that context we would take a look at anything that needs to be changed to allow us to better protect fisheries and promote conservation.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Is there regular interaction between us and the United States on protecting the Arctic on an annual basis, systematically?

[Annette Gibbons]

There is constant interaction, both within DFO and also the Coast Guard.

[Mario Pelletier]

Yes, we meet yearly at my level with the U.S. Coast Guard commandant and we discuss strategic plans going forward. We exercise together in the Arctic and we're also part of the Arctic Coast Guard Forum. Both the United States and Canada are very active participants in this forum.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, both.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dong.

Commissioner, using the chair's prerogative, I have two brief questions.

You mentioned that when vessels come into the Arctic, reporting is voluntary if they are under a certain size. That's interesting, because in our Great Lakes—and I represent an area, Passamaquoddy Bay, which is right next to the Bay of Fundy—if any vessel of any size just crosses the international line between Canada and the U.S., they're required to report in.

Why, in your opinion, is that not the case in the north? If that's not something that's on the books now, is that a cabinet decision or would Parliament be required to make that change? Do you know?

[Mario Pelletier]

It would be a regulatory change.

Just to correct something, if a ship is sailing through Canadian waters but doesn't make land, they don't have to report. If they are coming to a port, they have to report within 48 hours.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will correct you on that, actually. That changed about 10 years ago, to deal with cross-border smuggling. It was a big change. I use those waters. Just crossing the line, even if they do not disembark in a foreign country, all boaters in Passamaquoddy Bay, and the Great Lakes, are required to report, just crossing that line. It was a considerable change.

My other question is this. You mentioned, on the question of the Arctic and Russia's icebreakers, that it's something you couldn't comment on. Is that because it's a DND issue or because it's one that you didn't think was relevant to the testimony today?

[Mario Pelletier]

The Russian fleet is very different from what we have in Canada, where we have the Coast Guard and we have DND and a navy ship. There is kind of a mix, so that's why I said I don't exactly know.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Fair enough.

Have there been instances where Russian icebreakers have crossed into our waters or have attempted to do so?

[Mario Pelletier]

Not that we know of. We went to the North Pole a number of times to map the continental shelf. It happens that the Russians are around there, but never in what is known as “Canadian waters”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

On that, to all the witnesses, thank you very much for attending. You're excused.

I'm going to suspend this meeting just for two minutes so members can get organized. We now have some committee business that will take place in public. Witnesses are welcome to stay if they'd like, but I'm just going to pause for two minutes, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Now we turn to our committee business. I'm going to turn to Madame Sinclair-Desgagné in just a few seconds.

I'm informed we have a hard stop at one o'clock.

Ms. Yip, is this to speak to the motion or something else?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I want to move that the committee move from public to in camera.