Public Accounts Committee on March 20th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is the time, Mr. Kram.

Finally, we have Ms. Shanahan.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I thank the minister for being with us here today with officials from the department.

I'm very encouraged to hear about this innovation with advanced payments. I highly encourage it as a former commercial banker. Cash flow is a game-changer, especially when we're trying to address emergency situations, other equipment needs and so on.

I'm a long-time member of this committee, and I recall the late Michael Ferguson, a former auditor general, and his plea to this committee to make this issue a priority, to press the government on reconciliation and to provide outcomes to solving critical crisis situations on first nations reserves.

To that note, I'd like to ask the minister what has changed. Have we reacted in that vein? I'm thinking of the budgets we've had in the past, 2019 and so on. Have we made a difference here in putting money towards these issues?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think the short answer is yes. I mean, we are spending more towards the kinds of things that make equity more foreseeable in first nations communities, but I would say that the gap is still very large. I think the principle of truth, equity and self-determination, which is how the department governs itself, requires us to be fiercely honest with ourselves—all of us, regardless of our political stripe—that Canada is a colonial country; that we have significantly and intentionally underfunded indigenous people over 150 years; and that we are all now trying to figure out how best to get through this together.

Investment is a huge piece of it. I am grateful for a Prime Minister who has put reconciliation at the core and in fact at the centre of all our mandates as ministers, and certainly with our caucus, but it will take consistent and predictable investments and relationships and changes in law to lead to the kinds of trusting relationships that we hope to have. The trust is growing, and it's beginning, but we live in a system that can change rapidly. Indigenous people frequently talk to me about their fears if those kinds of consistent investments are not continued.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Minister, it's interesting that you and some of your officials made mention earlier of the idea of advance payments being based on that trust. We're the public accounts committee. We're here to look at the money, where it went, how it was spent and so on. I'm sure that I can anticipate future public accounts committees saying, “Wait a minute. This money went out to this community. How did it get spent?”

How do you intend to address those comments?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think we can do auditing in a different way, where we look for patterns of abuse rather than micromanaging communities. Communities for a very long time have been extremely micromanaged in ways such that their financial transparency is above, really, the financial transparency required anywhere else. This is about changing that narrative and understanding that, just like every other system, there may be areas that need tightening and there may be areas that need loosening, but we need to continue to have those conversations around self-determination. Self-determination is the principle that allows us to be able to move forward with advance payments. Communities know for themselves how to protect one another and how to do so in an efficient way.

I see my deputy leaning in, so I'm going to let her have a quick word here.

[Gina Wilson]

I'll be very brief.

Despite the fact that an advance payment goes out, the full payment is still audited, or there is still detailed reporting on that. I just wanted to make sure that was mentioned.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's good to know.

Is there anything else you'd like to add? You mentioned something earlier about learning from dealing with the COVID emergency. Talk to us about that.

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Obviously, COVID was a time that probably for most of us.... It's a blur, isn't it? During the time of COVID, we knew that indigenous communities would be very at risk of contracting COVID and potentially dying. In fact, outcomes from other indigenous populations were not so great, including in the United States. Of course, the government really needed to move quickly. One of the ways that we could move quickly—I have to compliment my predecessor, Minister Miller, on this work—was to ensure that communities had advance payments to be able to use in a way that they felt would be the best way to protect their communities.

The responses were diverse. Some communities did indeed set up forms of border control, if you will, and limited mobility. Other communities supported urban residents with food cards and other kinds of essential needs, so that elderly or at-risk people didn't have to go out. Others did a lot of public health information in culturally appropriate languages or traditions.

Val, you were really involved. Do you want to speak a bit about it?

[Valerie Gideon]

I would just say that it really was about making sure that communities felt empowered to take the actions they needed and felt engaged and didn't have to come to us every time to get authorization to do this or that. It worked very effectively.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. The time has now escaped us.

Minister, I will leave one comment with you, because it's unusual for this committee to hear from a minister directly. Despite your reassuring words today, it does seem that something is not working. I think you would agree that given the repeated reports from the Auditor General, changing ways needs to result in measurable outcomes, and it doesn't seem we're seeing that. You're welcome to respond to that, if you like, in 30 seconds, but I did want to press that with you, because I think you'll be hearing that from the committee.

I want to take this moment to thank you as well for agreeing to appear today. We certainly appreciate it, and I thank you again.

If you'd like to take 30 seconds, you're welcome to do so. Then you'll be free to go.

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I agree with the Auditor General. That's why we are developing an action plan with measurables that include more than the investments. They actually include the outcome measurement that I think is critical to changing any dysfunctional system.

I look forward to being part of that work, and I look forward to the report of the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'll suspend now for five minutes, until 12:10.

I know the minister has a pressing engagement and a busy schedule, so she'll be leaving us. I believe the other officials are staying. I could be wrong on that. We'll find out in five minutes.

Thank you, all.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to bring this meeting back to order.

Right off the top, I'm going to do the rounds similar to before. The first four members will each have six minutes.

Thank you for agreeing to continue with us this second hour. We appreciate it.

That clock is terribly wrong. Just ignore it if you're wondering how soon we're going to be out of here.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Ms. Wilkinson, in answer to Mr. Kram's comments, you spoke about setting goals and it not being based just on money spent.

Why are those targets not reflected in your departmental plans?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

In fact, respectfully, Chair, they are reflected in our departmental plans.

We have indicators, as an example, in a number of—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Tell me where.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

For example, we have the number of evacuees who return home within three months, which is at 97%.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry, I'll be a bit more precise. I'm talking more around the infrastructure.

Actually, I looked at your departmental plan, and 60% of them don't have targets set for the result indicators. I'm curious why so many don't have targets set. They're to be advised or to be decided next year.

Specifically around the infrastructure, it's not even mentioned in any of the targets in the departmental plans. Knowing, of course, that the departmental plans set out the priorities for the year, why not?

[Gina Wilson]

I believe there is a departmental result on infrastructure in our departmental plan.

Can we pull it out?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

While I continue my questions, maybe someone can get back to me and tell me exactly what page, unless you have it in front of you and unless I missed it, which is very possible.

Actually, it's 50% that don't have actual targets set.

While Ms. Gideon is looking for that, I just want to get back.... You talked about how the money is clearly not, or doesn't seem to be, in the estimates to cover all.

Leaving this meeting, who specifically on the team is going to be saying that they will be accountable and responsible for ensuring that these infrastructure items, and other items highlighted in the report, are actually acted upon?

We asked the minister, and it was like...it's all of us. It's not all of us. It's someone from your department.

Who's that going to be? Is that going to be the deputy minister?

[Gina Wilson]

I am definitely responsible, as deputy minister, for administering policies and programs that I have been provided authority for from the government.

I'm also responsible for working with auditors. We're working collaboratively to develop, implement and monitor a management action plan in response to this audit.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It will be you.

Ms. Gideon, do you have the page?

[Valerie Gideon]

We don't have the page number for you, but we can follow up with the page number. I have excerpts of it.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have your departmental plan right here.

[Valerie Gideon]

I have excerpts of it under departmental result 6.

I would also say that under the first nation infrastructure fund we did have a target of 100 structural mitigation projects by March 31, 2024. We've surpassed that with 112 projects that are under way or completed, and with 63 completed.