Evidence of meeting #85 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ncc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tobi Nussbaum  Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission
Alexis Michaud  Director, Official Residences, National Capital Commission

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 85 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting today as part of our study on the National Capital Commission and the Rideau Hall storage building.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

Good morning.

From the National Capital Commission, we have Tobi Nussbaum, chief executive officer; Simon Comtois, vice-president, design and construction; and Alexis Michaud, director, official residences.

Mr. Nussbaum, you have the floor for five minutes. Thank you for appearing today.

11 a.m.

Tobi Nussbaum Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Building on nearly 125 years of experience, the NCC is the principal planner and steward of federal lands and assets within the national capital region, which consist of over 11% of the land mass and include over 1,000 buildings, 300 kilometres of pathways, 145 bridges and many more assets, the total value of which exceeds $2.2 billion.

The building and grounds of Rideau Hall, comprising 26 historic buildings and 79 acres of property, have been managed by the NCC since 1988. As stewards of this national historic site, the NCC is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of all aspects of the site's infrastructure from sewer lines to energy, from land maintenance to building systems.

This work is conducted from the operation zone, the working area of Rideau Hall that houses the RCMP, the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General and the NCC, which uses the operation zone as the base for the NCC management of Rideau Hall as well as the other official residences.

The redevelopment of the operation zone started in 2003 with the conversion of the stables buildings to OSGG offices, the renovation of the Dome Building and then work to modernize and expand the RCMP garage and offices. The names of the buildings in the operation zone, used in shorthand, reference their historic vocation as an agricultural area and working farm.

In 2013, it became clear that four buildings used to service, maintain and store equipment used to manage the 79‑acre Rideau Hall site and other official residences had reached the end of their useful life. The buildings didn't meet operational needs, causing significant health and safety issues. We therefore began planning to replace them.

The project would include selective demolition of the buildings, remediation of the contaminated soil, and the construction of one energy-efficient and modernized building that could serve as a service, maintenance and storage facility while also accommodating the 20 to 40 year-round and seasonal employees who would operate out of the site.

Constructing a new facility also presents a unique opportunity to build to zero-carbon specifications, thereby reducing Rideau Hall's overall carbon footprint, something especially important given that the NCC, as one of only two federal Crown corporations to voluntarily adopt the Government of Canada's sustainable development strategy, is committed to achieving zero carbon across its portfolio by 2050.

Before the NCC could break ground on a new facility, detailed and extensive studies and levels of federal approvals were required, including by the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office, given Rideau Hall's status as a national historic site.

In 2019 the NCC board of directors approved the project budget, which included the costs of demolition, decontamination, studies, risks, contingencies, designs as well as construction. The work began in 2020 and the facility was completed towards the end of 2021.

There is value in briefly explaining how the project was carried out. In 2018 prior to the start of the project, to enable the NCC to deliver on its deferred-asset maintenance, the NCC held a competitive public tender to retain construction management services to deliver on the dozens of construction projects the NCC initiates each year throughout its portfolio.

The public tender was awarded to the lowest compliant bidder, Pomerleau, a Quebec-based construction company with extensive national and international experience.

Pomerleau built the maintenance and storage building for the NCC. To ensure competitive pricing, Pomerleau posted 20 public tenders on MERX for pre-qualified suppliers to line up all the disciplines required to build the building.

Despite cost increases due to the COVID-19 pandemic and significant construction, inflation and supply chain challenges, the project was delivered within the project envelope.

Lastly, Mr. Chair, I have a quick note on the building's energy performance. Not only is the building net-zero carbon, but it also generates 40% of the energy it requires to operate, far exceeding the zero-carbon building standard minimum requirement of 5%, creating a negative carbon footprint and reducing the cost of energy on the Rideau Hall site.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I would like to reiterate that the NCC takes its role as a steward of public funds extremely seriously as it fulfills its mandate of building an inspiring capital, while conserving, maintaining and restoring its extensive natural and built assets for future generations.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Now we'll turn to our first round.

Mr. Stewart, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the National Capital Commission for the witnesses appearing here today.

I understand that the $8-million barn is part of the operations zone site map sent to the committee by the NCC yesterday and labelled “Barn Building”. From photos we've seen, it looks more like a detached garage with four doors, or a cement building with some solar panels on it.

Can you tell us who approved this ridiculous $8-million barn project and how it's possible to spend $8 million on a barn?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

Thank you for the question.

The service, maintenance and storage building has been part of plans initiated by the NCC as far back as 2013-14, where we indicated in our corporate plan the need to replace the four buildings that were later demolished and replaced by the single-service maintenance and storage building.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you for that.

My question is, who approved it?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

As a federal Crown corporation, the NCC has an independent board of directors that is responsible, Mr. Chair, for approving all expenditures over a certain threshold, which included the monies for this project.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Okay.

How was it possible to spend $8 million on the facility?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

Mr. Chair, I would start by saying that $8 million is a lot of money. The NCC takes the stewardship of all its public funds very, very seriously.

It is important in this context to recall, as I said in my opening statement, that the cost of this project included the demolition of the previous existing buildings, the decontamination of contaminated soil on sites, studies, design and all of the soft costs, as well as the construction costs for this building.

I think, to give you a slightly longer answer, there are three important contextual factors that often lead to the prices of infrastructure being even higher than they might normally be.

One is that we're operating on a national historic site. That means you have to go through layers of federal approvals. You have to ensure the design and the character of the building reflect the historic concepts—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

I appreciate that answer so far, but clearly the cost of climate change effectively has made this clearly, vastly and egregiously more expensive for the taxpayers of Canada. Canadians are properly outraged that while regular citizens are tightening their belts and making financial sacrifices, the Trudeau government approved spending $8 million on what you now call a service, maintenance and storage facility.

Has anyone been held accountable for this outrageous spending? Has anyone been fired?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Just one second, Mr. Stewart. There is a point of order.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

The witness just clearly identified that the NCC is independent of the government.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Mr. Blois, you know that's not a point of order. You're welcome to have your turn to get your remarks on the record. The witness, of course, will have a turn to respond as well.

Mr. Stewart, I did stop the clock. You have three minutes left. It's over to you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through the chair to the NCC CEO, has anyone been held accountable for this outrageous spending? Has anyone been fired? Will any managers or executives at the NCC, including but not limited to you, lose a bonus or pay raise over this scandal?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

Mr. Chair, what's important to note, I think, in understanding the context of checks and balances on spending conducted by the NCC there are three important, salient points.

One of them is that we are subject to an annual audit by the Office of the Auditor General. The Office of the Auditor General has every opportunity to do an examination of the NCC spending and provide any recommendations or advice—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

I'd like to get a yes or a no in these answers.

Number one, has anyone been held accountable? That's a yes or a no.

Has anyone been fired? That's a yes or a no.

Also, has any manager or executive lost a bonus over this?

Those are three questions. I'd like yeses or noes to all three of them.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

Mr. Chair, I do think it's important in answering this question to provide a sense of what the financial oversight is.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

That's not the question, though.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Hold on. I have the floor. The beauty of committee is that I get to ask the questions on behalf of the taxpayers. All I'm seeking are yeses or noes. They're very simple answers. Everybody can understand what they mean. That's all I'm looking for.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

Tobi Nussbaum

So on terms of accountability, which is what I was getting at, ultimately the board of the NCC is accountable for these projects. I, as the chief executive officer, am obviously the senior manager, and the accountability lies both with the board and with me as the chief executive officer.

I hope I've answered the question.

In terms of employment, no, there have been no employees who have lost their employment at the NCC, for reasons that I've explained at the outset, in terms of the fact that we take the stewardship of public funds very, very seriously—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you for that.

The third question was, has any manager or executive, not limited to you, lost a bonus or a pay raise over the $8-million expenditure for a barn?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you for that.

All right: How can spending $8 million on a barn that houses zero people and provides no economic benefit be a good use of taxpayers' money?