Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I look to you for guidance. I was wondering whether the amendment would be out of order because it's beyond the scope of the original motion. It really changes the dynamic of the actual motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to have a look at it. Give me one second.

Ms. Shanahan, do you have it in front of you? Would you mind reading it again?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have notes on it, so—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Could you read it again into the record?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay....

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to suspend for a minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If members could take their seats again, I'm going to call the meeting back to order.

Ms. Shanahan, I'm going to rule this beyond the scope of the motion.

You are certainly welcome to come back with this motion. I have the clerk looking up the rationale, if you would like to hear that, or we could just proceed with the debate on the motion. Of course, you are welcome to bring this back at any time.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Could I hear the rationale?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. We'll have the clerk.... I probably should have given the clerk another 30 seconds to slip through his well-used O'Brien and Bosc.

[An hon. member]

Is this a challenge to the chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, it's not a challenge. This is a friendly inquiry. If that ever happens, I'm sure we'll know.

I'll just suspend again for one minute, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call the meeting back to order.

This is probably a bit of overkill. I have ruled that this amendment exceeds the scope of the motion before us, but just to reinforce the decision, Clerk, could you please just highlight for folks the page and section you were referring to in advising me?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Cédric Taquet]

Yes. It's the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, chapter 12, “The Process of Debate”, page 541. It states that:

An amendment is out of order, procedurally, if:

it is irrelevant to the main motion ([meaning] it deals with a matter foreign to the main motion, exceeds the scope, or introduces a new proposition which should properly be the subject of a separate substantive motion with notice);

It raises a question substantially the same as one which the House [or the committee] has decided in the same session or conflicts with an amendment already agreed to;

it is completely contrary to the main motion and would produce the same result as the defeat of the main motion;

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

There are a few points there to hang the hat on.

That is my ruling.

Mrs. Shanahan, we'll go over to you, please.

Do you want the floor? If not, it's your call.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

If you have something to say further on that—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, I don't.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay, very good.

Chair, it's a learning moment. Certainly my intention is to improve upon Mr. Stewart's motion, because I think we did learn quite a bit during that testimony, and there's more that we would like to learn.

I would like to take this time to propose alternate wording.

With the amendment that I am proposing, the entire amended motion would read as follows: “That the Committee call on the Auditor General of Canada to audit the National Capital Commission's storage maintenance facility and the impact of deferred maintenance on federal heritage buildings in the National Capital Region.”

I think we can furnish some ad hoc French wording.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'll hear your point of order, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would just seek your guidance as well on whether this amendment would be not permissible for a reason similar to what the clerk just ably read out.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

This one I will rule in order. It might need a little work, but I think it is broadly in order. I will allow it. It is an amendment to the motion. The clerk will type it up as quickly as he can and send it around.

Would you still like to speak to it, Mrs. Shanahan, or should we let things rip?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

We'll let the clerk do his work, in fairness to everyone.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to let him do that, but do you still want to speak to it? If you do, the floor is yours, but if you don't, I'm going to move on to another member.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

My intention here is to discuss it in broader terms, because that is very fitting in our role here in public accounts. We're always seeking to have better practices and to extend the recommendations that the Auditor General will make towards any given agency or department that would better help other departments in the public service.

The issue of deferred maintenance is a key one. It has plagued many different projects and many different departments over the years. It is one that is irrespective of the government in question. It goes toward a tendency of short-term thinking, which too often results in long-term potential disasters when buildings such as 24 Sussex are actually termed as unsafe for human habitation.

With that, I hope the new wording captures that intention. We're asking the Auditor General to look at this issue of deferred maintenance for all heritage buildings, including the storage facility we studied in depth. That will be very helpful. It will certainly advance the work that we do here as a committee and be of benefit to this administration and future administrations.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I will recognize Ms. Khalid next. I will just check in with the clerk.

Mr. Stewart, do you have a point of order, or is this a request for the speaking order?

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I was just going to speak to it.