Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Accounts in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Fortin  Deputy Commissioner, Canada Revenue Agency

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Good morning, everyone.

I now call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, but I believe everyone is in the room.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, October 21, 2025, the committee resumed consideration of the report on the Canada Revenue Agency contact centres, of the 2025 fall reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

I'd like to welcome our two witnesses. Thank you for appearing in person.

We have the Honourable Wayne Long, Secretary of State, Canada Revenue Agency and Financial Institutions. I understand he'll be offering some brief remarks.

Accompanying him today, from the Canada Revenue Agency, we have Jean-François Fortin, deputy commissioner. Nice to see you as well, sir.

Mr. Long, you have up to five minutes. We'll then begin our rounds of questioning.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Saint John—Kennebecasis New Brunswick

Liberal

Wayne Long LiberalSecretary of State (Canada Revenue Agency and Financial Institutions)

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, fellow parliamentarians. It's wonderful to be here.

I am blessed to be in my 11th year as a member of Parliament for the beautiful riding of Saint John—Kennebecasis, which most of you know now butts up against your chair's beautiful riding of Saint John—St. Croix. We share the same city.

In all truthfulness, committee work is so important to Parliament. I sat on committee, in particular HUMA, for the better part of 10 years. I want you to know how much I appreciate the work you do. It's important to Canadians.

We're here to talk about our 100-day plan. We're here to talk about the CRA. I will start by saying that I was given the privilege to be secretary of state for the CRA. I was sworn in on May 13. I'll certainly say that it's been a wonderful privilege to serve Canadians in this role.

We around this horseshoe, this table, have all heard from Canadians who have come into our offices or called our offices about the CRA and concerns they had with getting a hold of the CRA, wait times and what have you. I knew that, obviously, from being a constituency MP before I was sworn in. I was certainly aware that there were some challenges with the CRA with respect to the frustration level of Canadians wanting to have calls answered.

Very shortly after I was sworn in, I became more acutely aware of what I call the problem resolution service. I call it the PRP. It is the urgent service that, when Canadians come in to a constituency office, members of Parliament have so they can call to elevate and deal with urgent cases. The wait times were off the charts. They were long.

The first thing I did as secretary of state for the CRA was to work with the deputy commissioner and, obviously, the commissioner. We focused on exactly what was going on, and we reallocated more resources to the PRP. There are, give or take, 125 people who look after the PRP and look after that MP line. We allocated another 50 to 60 people to that.

We took action quickly. I would say, as a result, that we have the PRP under good control, back within its times of a response within five days and a resolution, one way or the other, within 15 days.

My background is small business. I've run small businesses, some sports business and some other businesses. I believe in accountability, I believe in focus and I believe in results. What this showed me was that, if we went in and identified a problem—we all knew what that problem was—focused on it and put the proper resources to it, we could have success.

To me, that was a good sign, but we also knew that it was a symptom. There was a larger problem of service delivery. Again, we all heard it. It's not news to anybody around this table that constituents were coming in saying they were waiting forever for the CRA.

On September 2, Minister Champagne and I tasked the CRA to launch a 100-day plan to focus on what's going on, what we could do to address it and how we could fix things. For the record, we also did write the chair of finance. I know this is PACP, but we also wrote the chair of finance to offer to appear. We were proactive. I believe in accountability. I was sworn in on May 13. I'm accountable. The buck stops with me.

We wanted to institute the 100-day plan. The plan has four pillars. Increasing the ability to answer calls is first and foremost. It's hard to believe, but there are 30 million calls to the CRA each year.

Number two was to expand digitalized self-service options to reduce the number of calls. Maybe people can unlock their accounts online without calling. Maybe they can register for the CCB without calling.

Third was to address call drivers upstream and head off problems before people need to call or need to go online.

Fourth was to accelerate service modernization.

Obviously, we saw the Auditor General's report. It looked at a previous period, i.e., backwards from spring. We thank her for that report. However, at the time that report was released, we were already focusing on addressing issues that were kind of in that report. We're almost there. Every day on my whiteboard, I cross something off. I had seven, I had six, and we're one week out.

I'm looking forward to the 100-day plan's ending, but I'm also looking forward to day 101, and forward five years. We are working on a three- to five-year plan. I am excited about that. I believe we're on the right track. We have a wonderful relationship with the commissioner, the deputy commissioner and the president of the union, Mr. Marc Brière. We're going to continue to strive to be better and offer the service that Canadians expect and deserve from their CRA.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm happy to take questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Secretary Long.

Our first round will consist of three members, for six minutes each.

Mr. Deltell, you will be the first speaker. You have six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, colleagues.

Welcome, Secretary of State.

As you said earlier, you were elected in 2015, so we are in the same class. I have seen you the last 10 years as a very important member of Parliament on the government side, without having a portfolio, but now you have one.

My first question is a direct one.

You mentioned that, when you were appointed secretary of state for the Canada Revenue Agency and financial institutions, you had some major challenges ahead of you. You even got a little emotional when you recalled your appointment last May.

You served as a government member for 10 years, and for 10 years, we saw the quality of service at the CRA drop dramatically. When people call the CRA, they are given the wrong information four times out of five, and the wait time is twice as long as normal. That is what the Auditor General said in her most recent report.

How is it that, during your 10 years as a government MP, your government let the situation deteriorate so terribly for all Canadians?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Thank you, MP Deltell. Not to butter you up at this committee, but I have a lot of respect for you. We sat on committees together and I appreciate the work you have done on behalf of Canadians.

To answer that question, I was sworn in on May 13. I believe in accountability. You saw me put my hand up. I believe in looking forward. I really believe that you can learn from the past, but I was responsible for the CRA from May 13 forward. That's why we've tasked the CRA to come up with a 100-day plan. We've reallocated resources. We're focusing on hot spots, if you will.

Therefore, the past is the past to me. I'm worried about the future. I'm very confident and I think the 100-day plan is showing really good results. When we started the 100-day plan, MP Deltell, we were at basically 34% of calls being answered within 15 minutes. We've more than doubled that now. I think we are showing amazing progress.

This again shows me that if we take accountability, we focus, we really lean in and “put the shoulder in”, as I like to say, on things that are wrong and ask what we can do about them and how we can fix them, we can have results.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Sorry—

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Just to finish this off, I'm looking forward. That's why we've tasked the CRA beyond the 100-day plan. The 100-day plan is great, but it's a band-aid. I want to go past that.

I'm not looking at the past. I'm not really here to speak about what happened and when. I'm here to speak about what happens from now and into the future.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

What the Auditor General said is nothing new. That is the major problem. There was a report in 2017 that said exactly the same things. However, when you were a government MP, your government did nothing.

What do you think about the former member for Gaspésie who served as the Liberal national revenue minister for over seven years and did nothing to remedy the situation at the CRA?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Again, with respect, I can't speak to the direction of the CRA before I was sworn in—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Was she a good minister or not, yes or no?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Okay. That's your style.

Let's come back to what is happening today.

This is the first time that we have had a secretary of state for the CRA. However, the finance minister was responsible for the CRA.

Since you have been in your position, how many cabinet meetings have you attended and how many times have you made executive decisions?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

As secretaries of state, we come in and out of cabinet meetings. I've been to many cabinet meetings. My focus is on the CRA and financial institutions as secretary of state.

I have regular meetings with the commissioner and deputy commissioner. I've developed a great working relationship with the president of UTE, Marc Brière. To me, it's about creating the right culture.

I come from a bit of a hockey background, too. The culture starts at the top. The accountability starts at the top. Again, we have good dialogue and we identify problems. My focus is on fixing what I see in front of me.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Are you an executive decision-maker or do you have to refer to the Minister of Finance who has the final word? Do you have true executive responsibility, yes or no?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

How many decisions have you made since you've been secretary of state?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

Is that with respect to the CRA?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Yes.

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

There have been some decisions I've made.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

How many times have you attended a cabinet meeting? As secretary of state, you're not part of cabinet.

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

No, that's not actually true. I do attend cabinet meetings.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

Yesterday, we asked the cabinet secretary some questions and he told us that secretaries of state can only participate in cabinet meetings when issues related to their responsibilities are being addressed.

As a secretary of state, you are not a member of cabinet.

What's the difference between—

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

That's true, yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC

—between the minister and you, as secretary of state?

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB

I'm sorry. I'm not clear on the question, MP Deltell.