Science and Research Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mays, given the nature of the institute you run and the products you market, have you encountered any laws that impede the implementation of your programs or the knowledge of indigenous peoples?

[Joseph Mays]

Thank you for your question.

My organization isn't involved in facilitating commercialization. Rather, it's facilitating conversations between the different stakeholders involved. We actually try to highlight with our publications, which are all free and accessible online, the work of indigenous scholars and activists and researchers and people from the global south.

I think in this conversation this is what's most interesting to me—the different ways we can find to protect indigenous knowledge and the plant medicines from being exploited, commodified or commercialized in a way that would result in a lack of fair compensation to the communities involved. Those are things like anti-patent strategies or liberatory licences or IP abolition or, in the context of the United States, to look at the different protections there are for religious use, which can sometimes trump commercial, clinical or medical contexts and also allow for a greater protection for a more diverse range of different cultures and communities that might be using these compounds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you.

We got in a lot in a minute and a half.

Go ahead, Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to you, Ms. Cropp, and ask something maybe along those same lines.

In my previous life, I worked with indigenous communities on ecological and environmental planning issues. Some things were considered kind of proprietary in terms of indigenous knowledge. I'm just wondering how that is dealt with in projects that you've been involved with.

[Alexandra Cropp]

Thank you.

I think the most important thing to understand, of course, is that sometimes some of our knowledge has been taken and exploited in certain ways, so there are times when indigenous peoples are more protective of our science and our ways of being. As we move forward to ensure that this is done in a meaningful manner—in a partnership, if you will—I think the biggest thing is not assuming that both will be in contradiction but that both will complement each other.

Indigenous people may not have typical western data that supports our theories, our theses or our understanding of how the ecosystem is working or of how our lands are or of how the project may impact our water systems, but I think the most important thing when we're having those conversations is that everyone is together at the table, both indigenous peoples and our western scientists.

We need to understand that most times, our indigenous ways of being and our science are in fact complementary. We need to ensure that there's an opportunity to voice those areas so that both can see that when we're focusing on ensuring that we're keeping our lands safe, we're taking into consideration the next seven generations and ensuring that any economic development or any projects that are done on our lands are done in a manner that will be sustainable for not only the region but also the nation and Canadians as a whole.

It's also ensuring that the science is respected. Through that respect, there will be more of an opportunity for indigenous peoples to want to share that information and more of an opportunity for indigenous youth to see that there's an opportunity to further share our science and our knowledge as we grow into a better Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Wonderful.

This has been a terrific conversation. Thank you to the members for their questions, but thank you especially to our witnesses for being with us.

Reverend Michael Lyons, Alexandra Cropp, Laurie Swami and Joseph Mays, thank you for your participation in relation to this study of integrating indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy. If you have anything else that comes to mind, as I said, please do submit it in writing to the clerk. Thank you for being with us.

We will now suspend briefly while we set up our next panel. We will get audiovisual tests for our two online witnesses and make room for our witnesses in person.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We're good to get started.

Thank you to the technicians for getting us a quick turnaround here.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee continues its study of integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's now my pleasure to welcome our experts this afternoon.

From the University of Saskatchewan, we have Kevin Lewis, assistant professor. We also have in the room Michael DeGagné, president and chief executive officer of Indspire.

We have Jeannette Armstrong, associate professor, online as an individual. We also have, from the Dechinta Centre for Research and Learning, Kelsey Wrightson, who is the executive director.

I'm going to move Mr. Lewis up to the top of the order.

I understand you may have to leave early. You have five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Dr. Kevin Lewis, Assistant Professor, University of Saskatchewan]

[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]

Greetings to my elected leaders, family and relations. I greet all of you. The Creator gifts us another day to speak on another important topic. Integrating indigenous knowledge and science in policy development couldn't come any sooner.

I bring greetings and acknowledgement of indigenous territories, nahkowê-iyiniwak, the Algonquin and Odawa territory.

One thing we have in mind that we wanted to come and speak about on behalf of our elders and our people is defining indigenous traditional knowledge, ITK. We need to explain indigenous traditional knowledge. The way we see it from the elders, it is the accumulated knowledge and practices developed by indigenous communities over generations.

It is just like the birch tree example. This tree can feed us. We can drink from this tree, and we can travel with canoes and we can create baskets to gather and harvest plants and medicines. It is also the strong emphasis on ITK's holistic and interconnected nature in biology, which is considered wâhkôhtowin, and the earth walk, which is askiy pimohtêwin.

The importance of ITK, from the elders' point of view, is highlighting the value of ITK in environmental management, sustainability and cultural preservation. The other thing we have to mention is how ITK contributes to resilience and adaptability in the face of climate change.

We know we have seen climate change already. There was a flood story and there were ice age stories. We sing about these times. We remember these through our storytelling ceremonies and ways of remembering. We recognize the gap here; there's a lot that western knowledge does not understand about ITK.

It is nice that we are also acknowledging the historical exclusion of ITK in government policies and decisions. We need the integration of ITK with western science to have the benefits of integration. Here, we have to discuss how integration enhances policy effectiveness and relevance, and we also have to emphasize the potential for innovative and holistic solutions. This is what we call political science.

The other things we wanted to showcase are the studies or examples of ITK and science being effectively integrated into government policies. We've been operating for over 21 years at kâniyâsihk Culture Camps, and we gathered four times in the past four years, talking about water and women, which is biology, wâhkôhtowin; water and medicine, which is chemistry; water and knowledge keepers, which is ethics and laws; and water and research, which is nitawahtâwin.

The other thing about our research on was that we landed the SSHRC grant—the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council grant—for integrating indigenous science in education, language and land management resources. That highlighted positive outcomes and community involvement when we had these research people who were helping the elders.

Then what I wanted to do was say that if you have any questions, feel free to ask them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. We're just waiting for the translator.

Thank you for providing comments in Plains Cree, and thank you to our translator.

Now we'll go to Dr. Michael DeGagné from Indspire, please, for five minutes.

[Dr. Michael DeGagné, President and Chief Executive Officer, Indspire]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to say a few words. I hope to introduce something new to the conversation, as you've been listening to a number of witnesses over the course of the development of this process.

I'm with an organization called Indspire. We are an indigenous organization that funds indigenous college, university and trade students by raising money from the private sector and government. For 32 years now, we've been doing this kind of work—identifying excellence in our community—and we have funded some 125,000 students. After three decades of this, we know a bit about what students are moving towards, what they're studying in the post-secondary environment and how often they encounter indigenous knowledge over the course of that process.

As a current professor at the University of Toronto and a former university administrator, I think this process of somehow integrating western science and indigenous knowledge, of having them come together, is analogous to the decade-long struggle for institutions to “indigenize”, especially institutions of higher learning. I've been talking about indigenization now for quite some time, both in terms of how institutions can become more indigenous in practice and in terms of the people who attend them.

These institutions are very good at a couple of things.

The first thing they're very good at is attracting more people who are indigenous to what is essentially a western network of institutions. There has been a significant increase in indigenous people in the post-secondary environment. You'll also find that we are increasing, albeit slowly, the number of professors in the environment, but it's still at a very low number.

The other thing institutions are very good at is place-making in cultural supports. There are indigenous centres in every university and college. I think this is a very comfortable, tried and true way of expressing a desire to attract indigenous people and make them feel welcome in a western institution.

One thing we are not good at is integrating curricula. I think this is probably most germane to the work you're doing. What we are attempting to do, in my view, in the university and college system is to take what are essentially western methodologies in science programs and arts programs and sprinkle them with indigenous stories and points of view, rather than see a full coming together of two completely different systems.

I would emphasize three points in this process.

The first is the importance of partnership development versus integration into what is already a western process. I'm sure this is the number one point you've heard since you began to see witnesses. The idea here is not to simply take what you perceive to be—or what communities have given to you as—indigenous knowledge and make it fit within a western construct. What we're saying here is that there are two parallel lenses. It's not necessarily two different types of knowledge, at the end of the day, but two different lenses through which this knowledge is seen and developed. These two types of knowledge should form a partnership, rather than us sprinkling one amidst the other.

The second is institution building. There's an old saying that when indigenous people have troubles, we get programs, and when non-indigenous people have troubles, they get institutions. Institutions have a way of becoming places where we can gain a better understanding of fundamental knowledge and information and where we can create advocacy programs for that knowledge. I would recommend that if you are to look seriously at indigenous knowledges and where they stand within the scientific world, help create institutions run by and for indigenous people that allow our understanding of those indigenous knowledges to flourish.

Lastly, language—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 10 seconds for the third point.

[Dr. Michael DeGagné]

I'll leave it there. My colleagues have done a better job than I have.

We describe the world through our language. Language programming, especially through artificial intelligence in this day and age, is absolutely critical to the process.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll turn to Dr. Jeannette Armstrong, who's here as an individual. She comes to us via video conference.

[Dr. Jeannette Armstrong, Associate Professor, As an Individual]

Thank you very much. Way̓ taliʔ x̌ast sx̌alx̌alt. In my language, that's greetings and that means it's a really good day.

The main thrust of my presentation is really to talk about how the conflicts between the two knowledge systems were resolved through two projects I was involved in. While I realize the topic is much broader, I can only speak about and share examples from experiences I have been fortunate to be part of.

In the first example I'll draw from, I was co-principal investigator of a research project entitled “Enhancing Ecosystem Sustainability: A Syilx/Settler Science Collaboration”. The second example I draw from is as co-investigator in a current project entitled “Watershed Ecosystems Project”. Both of these projects are in the Okanagan territory in British Columbia.

I also am drawing from my experience in my 10-year role at UBC Okanagan as Canada research chair in Okanagan Syilx knowledge and philosophy. I'm a fluent speaker of my language and a knowledge keeper.

The two projects are University of British Columbia Okanagan Eminence research projects, which bring together Syilx traditional ecological knowledge and settler science. Both were partnered with the En'owkin Centre, which is the Syilx centre for higher learning that's mandated by the seven reserves of the Syilx Okanagan Nation.

The En'owkin traditional ecological team led in organizing and planning the activities based in selected areas of special environmental concern that were identified by the chiefs of the Okanagan Nation Alliance to reconcile food insecurity in the decline of cultural keystone species. I think it's really significant that they identified the areas for study and the purpose.

The En'owkin team brought knowledge keepers from the seven communities, the language speakers. My role on faculty at UBC Okanagan provided a way to cross-translate from my academic experience and as an insider to Syilx knowledge to clarify areas that are esoteric to each.

I would advise that doing so is an essential prerequisite in easing tensions between the two systems of knowledge. Without that, you're always going to be dominated by western science mechanisms, tools, methods and structures.

The Syilx concern in the decline of the grizzly bear relates in very specific ways to the declines of the black huckleberry in grizzly bear habitat corridors. Black huckleberry is one of their main food sources. That was one focus of research.

In that research, success was measured by the Syilx, in that now two communities with the En'owkin Centre team are in the process of identifying really specific priority corridor areas for indigenous protection of the huckleberry and the grizzly bear and the correlation between the two.

Putting back the Okanagan chinook salmon and the connection between the Okanagan chinook salmon's decline and the decline of the valley floor's black cottonwood riparian system—because much of the river has been channelled and straightened—was another focus. Of course, the chinook salmon is a keystone resource.

The success that's measured by the Syilx in the partnering work between the En'owkin Centre, the Okanagan Nation Alliance, the Penticton Indian Band and numerous government agencies was to create a chinook recovery pond and return a cottonwood flood plain section of the Okanagan River that had been channelled.

The teaming up of the Syilx, settler science researchers and community partners to develop a watershed ecosystem-based science and governance model is also the focus of a new interdisciplinary project that we are heading up as a part of the UBC Okanagan Eminence research cluster.

Success in that project is looking at an interdisciplinary process to develop a new governance model that would integrate not only non-indigenous community members and users but also the way science creates and predicts the cumulative effects in that watershed while including two of the indigenous communities that have jurisdiction in that area.

The main outcome of that project is significant to this presentation with respect to how the settler science tools were engaged to establish and expand on ongoing Syilx works already under way, thus envisioning new works in environmental protection and conservation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but I have to say we can cut off there. If you can get anything else on that study to us, that would help the analysts with their work.

Thank you for your presentation.

Now we're going to go to Kelsey Wrightson, from the Dechinta Centre for Research and Learning, for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Dr. Kelsey Wrightson, Executive Director, Dechinta Centre for Research and Learning]

Hello. My name is Kelsey Wrightson. I'm the executive director at Dechinta Centre for Research and Learning.

We are a land-based post-secondary research and education institution that's based here in Chief Drygeese territory in Yellowknife, in the Northwest Territories. We do programming across the north that centres indigenous knowledge and knowledge holders in all stages of education and our research.

Our team has the privilege of learning alongside indigenous elders while we create multi-generational learning spaces for accredited post-secondary programs and also deliver and partner on award-winning research that integrates indigenous knowledge and knowledge keepers.

As I consider the question of integrating traditional knowledge into the government policy that directly impacts community wellness, security and prosperity, I offer the following: We must commit now to mobilizing indigenous knowledge to better understand and face the challenges of today, and we must invest in the future generations of knowledge keepers to ensure we're able to meet the challenges at our doorstep.

Over the last few decades, there has been growing recognition of the importance of indigenous knowledge, or traditional knowledge, across many fields of study. It is clear that integrating indigenous knowledge into research practice leads to better research and better evidence-based policies. Whether it's changes in the ice, monitoring fish in indigenous-protected and -conserved areas or understanding different models of governance, there is a deep and often underutilized knowledge held by elders, the language and the lands of indigenous nations. Many researchers will tell you that working alongside indigenous knowledge holders on their own lands is the best and most effective way to conduct research.

Fundamental to the integration of indigenous knowledge into government policy is the respect for the distinctions-based approach to traditional knowledge, acknowledging the diversity of knowledge systems across regions and cultures. Government policy must make space for distinctions in policy development and implementation to be most effective.

Along with recognizing the importance of indigenous knowledge-informed research practice, we've also witnessed an increase in mechanisms and channels for integrating traditional knowledge into government policy. For example, tri-council funding agencies have a dedicated strategic plan to support indigenous research and research training in Canada, and indigenous-led non-profits are eligible to hold research grants.

The development of co-management boards and a commitment to the co-development of policies prior to implementation have been important shifts in the mechanisms through which indigenous knowledge and research inform policy. At Dechinta, we have the privilege of working with elders who have spent decades—a lifetime—on the land. Nevertheless, those most directly connected to the land and the changes that they see are rarely at the consultation and engagement tables.

Supporting community-engaged research in partnership is an important step to ensuring that those voices and perspectives are appropriately considered in policy-making that most affects them. However, I must restate that in addition to considering integrating traditional knowledge, there must also be a commitment to and investment in intergenerational learning, because knowledge is not static—it evolves and it grows—and only through creating relationships of learning and sharing indigenous knowledge and practices will we give ourselves, as a country, our best chance to tackle issues that threaten indigenous and northern communities today.

You cannot have strong co-management boards and you cannot have indigenous knowledge and western ways of knowing strengthening collective knowledge generation and you cannot implement policies that integrate traditional knowledge without also ensuring that this knowledge is generated and shared across generations by investing in the relationships that build the next generations of knowledge holders, of elders and of researchers.

Good research takes time, and research that includes indigenous knowledge can require even more attention and the building of strong relationships of trust from the outset. When done right, that yields better results and benefits for all communities.

Investing in the future of indigenous knowledge holders through indigenous and research-based organizations and institutions is our best chance to ensure that this knowledge is integrated into policies that will solve our most pervasive and rapidly accelerating issues across Canada.

Mahsi cho. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That was terrific, and you were right on time. Thank you.

It looks like we're going to have room for one six-minute round around the table.

We'll start off with Mr. Soroka. You have six minutes, please.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

I'll start off with Dr. Lewis. You were the first to speak. What are the key elements for effectively bridging indigenous knowledge and western science?

[Dr. Kevin Lewis]

[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]

The first thing that I would say is getting along together and building good relationships with both sides—western and traditional knowledge. Both sides have a lot of knowledge. They have a lot to offer.

How we speak and how we acknowledge other people.... For example, the way to seek knowledge is by offering tobacco and lifting the pipe. In this way, the elders will talk about their knowledge that they have to offer.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'm sorry, but it's taking a little bit for translation to catch up.

What are some of the key challenges you have faced in building this bridge, and how were they overcome?

[Dr. Kevin Lewis]

[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]

One thing I can say is that I have gone to university. In university I gained a lot of western knowledge. I went to a residential day school. From there I went to teach at the universities.

They way I see it, what we lack at university is the teaching of indigenous knowledge. There is no indigenous knowledge being taught to the first-year university students. Therefore, they don't get that knowledge from anybody.

However, once we start getting first nations indigenous knowledge, there will be lots to offer. They have a lot of knowledge—the ceremonies, the language and the history. They have a lot of history that they can bring to the universities.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'll move on. I'm trying to give each one of you a couple of questions.

Dr. Wrightson, how can policies ensure active indigenous involvement and research beyond just consultation?

[Dr. Kelsey Wrightson]

I think there are lots of barriers that indigenous institutions and indigenous governments are still facing when it comes to actually getting equitable access to the resources to conduct their own research. There are still barriers within the tri-council policy that limit the kinds of research grants and the eligible expenses that indigenous organizations and governments can use those research grants to fund.

There's a cycle that happens in which indigenous organizations are constantly being asked to partner or consult on research grants but are not allocated the kinds of stable resources that are necessary to really engage in those partnerships. It's really important to consider, in policy, how to effectively and stably fund indigenous organizations that are doing cutting-edge research so that it can be more than consultation and can be a deep partnership.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Since you mentioned the tri-council, what changes do you propose to the tri-council funding policies to make them more accessible to indigenous people?

[Dr. Kelsey Wrightson]

I actually just applied for a tri-council grant, but unfortunately, because of the status of Dechinta and despite having many researchers who are working within our organization, we had to apply through a third party, which was a southern research institution, in order to actually access that granting opportunity.

One change I would like to see in the tri-council policy is consideration of indigenous non-profits and indigenous institutions that are not recognized as post-secondary institutions but are conducting some of the most meaningful and community-led research programs as eligible to hold some of those larger grants, which would enable us to have that more stable funding.